Are there an equal percentage of "Frum" Zexual Perverts?

LovesHashem

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 6:29 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

yes, I really do. why do people think that just because we are jews that means that we dont have every single bad thing in our communities. Also, the majority of non jews are good law abiding moral people. We as jews do not have the sole ownership on being moral people. And there are many jews who are anything but moral.

True, I am not naive.
But think about it.

Take all the frum people, who teach morals in school, build up the kid, have Hashem in their lives, etc (of course there are exceptions, but majority speaking, Yes people are hurt, abused, schools are messed up, but majoirty speaking, over 50 percent I can say is probsbly like this)
kids from this type of a system have morals.

Take all the non Jews, out of all of them how many are religious? (And are not ISIS or radical muslims?) 75 percent? How much of the 75 percent have issues like us? Abuse, messed up schools, etc (the crisises don't just belong to us). So let's say that 75 percent and our frum community have equal amounts of se*ual abuse. There's still the 25 percent that aren't religous to count in.

And yes, out of that 25 percent it could be 20 percent are nice wonderful, moral atheists. But there's still the five percent of jerks.

So yes, I say without Hashem, who defines what is right and wrong?

PinkFridge

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 7:07 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Yes, for a minute I thought this was the spiritual thread.
We are supposed to pray for the government (Happy Thanksgiving!) without which people would eat each other alive.
On the one hand, b"H for malchiyos shel chesed that allow morality to flourish. And as Rabbi Tatz said on this year's Ohr Samayach tour, there is innate morality in all of us. But ponder t his: If we all do what we think is right there will assuredly be utter chaos - Ashleigh Brilliant.

33055

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 8:03 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

We really don't have every single bad thing in frum communities. We don't need metal detectors in frum schools. We don't have students stabbed in schools. We don't have an opiod epidemic. We don't have 40% of our children being born out of wedlock. I can't even think of one. Our boys are not walking around with their pants falling down so their underwear shows. The worst is a chupp or they take their yumukah off. Our daughters are not dressing like hookers on the street corner. Our children are not running away to pimps. We make a place for those teens who can't get along at home. We provide help to the sick and needy. We have an extra safety net beyond the government. I don't know one single homeless person.

We provide safety and security.

amother

Bronze

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 8:11 am

Squishy wrote:

I agree with this. We have more chessed, less violent crimes, and more of a sense of responsibility toward each other as Jews, which makes our communities safer. But that's not really the question - The question is whether we have more se*ual perversion, and to answer that, data would have to be taken over many years, and percentages compared.

amother

Bronze

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 8:11 am

Squishy wrote:

amother

Lawngreen

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 8:18 am

Squishy wrote:

In some ways the frum community acts as a safety net, but it's hardly foolproof.

No, we don't have metal detectors in our schools. We have teenaged boys who block traffic, riot violently, and set fire to dumpsters.

We might have an opioid epidemic. Hidden isn't the same as non-existent. Ask the professionals.

Our daughters may not dress like tramps, but I assure you that their great grandmothers would not have been dressed the same way. Your notion of what's acceptable is culturally defined.

How good a job do we really do at providing a place for runaways, or kids who just don't belong? I think the professionals would say, not nearly good enough.

No Jewish family ever advertised that their daughter became a harlot, but of course it has happened and probably continues to happen. Google Zwi Migdal.

I don't mean to knock the good work and protection offered by our community. We do wonderful things. Except when we don't.

cookiecutter

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 8:18 am

Simple1 wrote:

Not necessarily because of morals , but because of the gedarim. There are simply a lot more boundaries and social norms a man would have to cross in the frum world.

Yes, I agree with this. Every time I have thought the frum world was immune to a particular problem, I have sadly learned that I was naive. But even so, s-xual assault must be less frequent in the frum community because you can't have date rape without dates. You can't have (as many) affairs if you rarely meet men in social settings. You are much less likely to have different interpretations of the nature of a relationship when the relationship itself is forbidden.

amother

Navy

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 8:48 am

cookiecutter wrote:

Yes but that might mean higher rates of incest, because that's who they have access to.

We were just debating whether we have higher rates of male on male pedophilia because of easier access, or secretly high rates of incest for the same reason. Perhaps we simply never find out about the female victims because of the lifelong repercussions that are much harsher for girls.

I do think it's rare for frum men to randomly attack and rape women or girls, but it does happen. (Violence does seem less common in our circles, though of course it occurs.) More common is inappropriately "seducing" or verbally coercing people they know: SIL, family friend, workmates... This is true out there as well.

A bochur was recently arrested for raping a young relative. The family of the girl refused to cooperate with the authorities. We will never hear about more stories like this because then the girl will never find a shidduch etc etc. Puke

33055

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 9:20 am

amother wrote:

We don't have teenage boys blocking traffic, rioting violently, and setting fires to dumpsters. The teenage boys who want to rebel put on a hoodie and get a chupp. They may smoke some weed. But they remain exceedingly respectful. We do have the ones that leave. They seem to get into trouble when they no longer accept the bubble's protection.

Teenage girls who move out move in with other families. There are no homeless people.

Yes, we do have users of opiods, but it isn't pervasive. Unfortunately, we also have tragedies, but they are not as frequent because we are grounded. I don't have to ask an expert because we are in each other's kishkas. Every arrest of a jewish person is known. Every death is known. Every at risk child is known. I know what is going on in my geographic area even if I don't know the family personally. We are that interconnected.

If course we have silent miserable people. But the first change out of cookie cutter status is noted.

There are some positive benifits to the lack of privacy.

I find there are less issues that put children at risk from their friends in this community. I will take it every day over a secular community.

The risks off perverts in same gender settings can be minimized. You can get cameras and transoms, avoid locked doors, and have good open communication. Tell you kids about inappropriate touching.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 9:34 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Do you think only jewish people teach their children morals and build up their kids? Puleezzeeee. Not even close.
I think you are extremely naive and Im going to leave it at that. Im not going to go back and forth. I completely disagree with you. And I almost feel bad for you because it is not like you are saying. And religion is not the only moral compass out there.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 9:39 am

Squishy wrote:

First of all, when I say every single thing bad, I was saying in general. Second of all, just because you dont have those specific things by you does not in any way mean that other jewish communities dont have them. You really think there are no children being born out of wedlock? Think again. Drugs? That is in way more places than you might want to think. And boys might not be walking around with their undies showing, but there are many many many girls, frum, out there, dressing in less than wonderful ways. It definitely happens.
You think the non jewish world doesnt also have places for teens or that non jews dont provide for the sick and needy? You must be living in a bubble then. There are so many no jewish organizations that do those things. And again, no offense, but just because YOU personlly dont know any homeless person does not mean there are no jewish ones out there. Thats a very naive thing to say (gosh, come to Israel, slightly jewish place :/, many homeless people here)
Jews dont have a monopoly on safety and security. Not by far.

FranticFrummie

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 10:06 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

And if any of you think there is no date rape in the frum world, that is also being naive. And it can happen on a shidduch "date" and there are frum people who do date. It is also something that can definitely happen.

Some people just can't handle the truth. There's a willful sort of ignorance and lack of imagination going on, compounded with a large dose of wishful thinking.

DH was never molested in yeshiva. He doesn't recall seeing anyone else get molested. Therefore, he insists that it has never happened in any yeshiva, ever. He thinks that "people invent those stories to fill up anti-frum blogs."

He also thinks that girls invent stories in order to punish the rav at their school, etc. Whenever these stories come up, he instantly takes the side of the accused, and is highly critical of the accuser.

He thinks that a man who cheats is like a unicorn. "Sure, it could happen, but it's so RARE!" Rolling Eyes

LovesHashem

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 10:07 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

If there is no Torah and no God, how do you know what is right or wrong?
I'm really curious as to how you think morals work. Please enlighten me on your theory.

I come from a city filled with mostly non jews, I'm not naive at all in that area.

amother

Lawngreen

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 10:16 am

Squishy wrote:

I live in Israel. There are an awful lot of ostensibly frum boys rioting in the streets at the slightest provocation. That's violent behavior. They can't get away with it in Monsey, so they don't. The boys who want out just leave.

I wish you were right that no one falls through the cracks, but even in the closest, warmest communities, kids drop out and are never heard from again. We need to do better, and congratulating ourselves for a job well done blinds us to real needs.

My guess is that there are fewer affairs in the frum community, but that's just a guess. I have no numbers. Real perversion? I think that's all over the place, spread equally across populations, and it's going to be found everywhere. People are people, and sickness doesn't care if you live in a close-knit community.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 10:22 am

LovesHashem wrote:

It does not matter where you come from LovesHashem. It matters what you believe.

And Im not going to start talk about moral compasses and the like. Hashem may have the monopoly on moral grounds, but there are mny people who are not religious, of any religion, who are moral upstanding citizens in this world. Not just frum jews are moral. And davka if you say you grew up among a lot of non jews, how can you say that only frun jews are moral people? Its just not true at all.

LovesHashem

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 10:29 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I never said non jews aren't moral. The majority are moral, wonderful, upstanding citizens. Did you even read my post correctly? That even most are, just like most Jews are if we are going by percentage, I beleive the minority of non jews who aren't moral are a larger percentage than the minority of frum Jews that aren't moral. That's the bottom line.

What makes something, anything inherently good or bad? Who said something is immoral or not? And forget morals, what makes something right or wrong? What makes stealing wrong? Marrying an underage girl wrong? Being g*y? Putting a tatoo on your body? Spilling the seed? Having an abortion? Eating without a bracha?

amother

Linen

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 11:15 am

It took me many many years to realize that s@xual issues are as rampant in the frum world as the secular one. Boy was I disappointed. I mean, what's the point of the wife doing all the taharat hamishpacha schpiel if just as many men cheat?
There are probably less affairs, due to public gedarim. But an awful lot of frum men seem to be frequenting harlots. Maybe even more than secular guys. The se@ual deviancies just go underground in the frum world.