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Are people who are very spiritual usually better people?
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amother
Royalblue


 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2017, 7:45 pm
1.Do you think people who are very spiritual are usually better people?

2. Do you think Torah makes people better people?
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amother
Magenta


 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2017, 7:49 pm
Yes. I hate to say it, but not specifically jews and the torah. If a person lives their life believing that there is a God and a world to come based on merit, they are more at peace and more likely to treat people better and be happy.
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amother
Goldenrod


 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2017, 7:52 pm
amother wrote:
1.Do you think people who are very spiritual are usually better people?

2. Do you think Torah makes people better people?

1. No
2. Yes if it's followed properly
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thunderstorm




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2017, 8:00 pm
amother wrote:
1. No
2. Yes if it's followed properly

I so agree with these answers. I know people who are "spiritual " but are really bad people. But if they followed the Torah properly they wouldn't be the bad person they are.
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icebreaker




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2017, 8:04 pm
No, I don't think so. I think Torah can make someone a better person if that's how they apply themselves. Simply knowing the Torah doesn't mean anything if you go against it. And on the flip side, someone who doesn't believe in the Torah (or any other religion, for that matter) isn't automatically a horrible, soulless person.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2017, 8:37 pm
1. Depends on the nature of the spirituality. And, as Dr. Twerski says in discussing the 12 steps, any spiritual person can tap into the power of the 12 steps and he includes atheists. IOW, spiritual is a big tent.

2. Absolutely. The fact that we don't see it is because there are so many bad actors.
Would it make some of our posters feel better if we include anyone who lives according to what the Torah wants of them, which would include people who keep the sheva mitzvos?
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2017, 8:49 pm
Spirituality is nothing more than belief in forces beyond the physical. This covers everything from Torah Judaism to lehavdil witchcraft, animism, Satanism and worshiping the Great Pumpkin. Some beliefs may cause people to behave better, while others may lead them to behave in ways that are too terrible to contemplate.
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amother
Royalblue


 

Post Thu, Nov 23 2017, 12:27 am
PinkFridge wrote:
1. Depends on the nature of the spirituality. And, as Dr. Twerski says in discussing the 12 steps, any spiritual person can tap into the power of the 12 steps and he includes atheists. IOW, spiritual is a big tent.

2. Absolutely. The fact that we don't see it is because there are so many bad actors.
Would it make some of our posters feel better if we include anyone who lives according to what the Torah wants of them, which would include people who keep the sheva mitzvos?


Very interesting
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LovesHashem




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 23 2017, 4:32 am
icebreaker wrote:
No, I don't think so. I think Torah can make someone a better person if that's how they apply themselves. Simply knowing the Torah doesn't mean anything if you go against it. And on the flip side, someone who doesn't believe in the Torah (or any other religion, for that matter) isn't automatically a horrible, soulless person.


The Torah does make people become better, if people abuse it and manipulate it that's another story, that's a problem with the person, not the Torah.
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amother
Hotpink


 

Post Thu, Nov 23 2017, 5:40 am
LovesHashem wrote:
The Torah does make people become better, if people abuse it and manipulate it that's another story, that's a problem with the person, not the Torah.


What you are saying is that for some people, lots of knowledge and exposure to Torah doesn't make them better. Otherwise they wouldn't abuse and manipulate it. So in fact Torah doesn't necessarily improve a person.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 23 2017, 5:44 am
One more time: Yoma 72b - "And this is the Torah that Moshe set (in Hebrew, sam, with a sin) ...", if one merits, it (the Torah) becomes a lifesaving medicine (in Hebrew, sam with a samech), if one does not, it becomes a deadly poison (as previous).
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LovesHashem




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 23 2017, 6:19 am
amother wrote:
What you are saying is that for some people, lots of knowledge and exposure to Torah doesn't make them better. Otherwise they wouldn't abuse and manipulate it. So in fact Torah doesn't necessarily improve a person.


"בדרך שאדם רוצה לילך". I cannot remember the source, if anyone has got it...please tell me and I'll edit my post to include it.

Hashem gave us free will. If you want to just give in to your taivos, hurt people, have fun, not think, you don't have to. You can even twist the Torah around to "validate" yourselves. We humans are smart people. That doesn't mean the Torah is less. If the Torah couldn't be abused whatsoevever, how would we have free will? Anything can be manipulated. People abuse others "in the name of Hashem" (Disgusting...). That doesn't mean there's something wrong with Hashem, chas vishalom- it's a flaw within the person.
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amother
Hotpink


 

Post Thu, Nov 23 2017, 7:57 am
LovesHashem wrote:
"בדרך שאדם רוצה לילך". I cannot remember the source, if anyone has got it...please tell me and I'll edit my post to include it.

Hashem gave us free will. If you want to just give in to your taivos, hurt people, have fun, not think, you don't have to. You can even twist the Torah around to "validate" yourselves. We humans are smart people. That doesn't mean the Torah is less. If the Torah couldn't be abused whatsoevever, how would we have free will? Anything can be manipulated. People abuse others "in the name of Hashem" (Disgusting...). That doesn't mean there's something wrong with Hashem, chas vishalom- it's a flaw within the person.


As far as I know, it's ,מכות י ע"ב, where it says בדרך שאדם רוצה לילך מולוכין אותו.

I don't see how that's relevant to our discussion.

There's nothing wrong with the Torah for not automatically making people better human beings. The fact is that behavior depends on the person, and not on how much Torah he has learned. A person can be ignorant and good, or learned and evil. As you say, we have free choice.
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LovesHashem




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 23 2017, 8:13 am
amother wrote:
As far as I know, it's ,מכות י ע"ב, where it says בדרך שאדם רוצה לילך מולוכין אותו.

I don't see how that's relevant to our discussion.

There's nothing wrong with the Torah for not automatically making people better human beings. The fact is that behavior depends on the person, and not on how much Torah he has learned. A person can be ignorant and good, or learned and evil. As you say, we have free choice.


But the Torah is the base of creation. Of course it makes people better if used correctly.
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amother
Hotpink


 

Post Thu, Nov 23 2017, 8:22 am
LovesHashem wrote:
But the Torah is the base of creation. Of course it makes people better if used correctly.


If used correctly. But only if used correctly
And it can be used incorrectly, which is why it's wrong to say that Torah is some automatic Pass Go, get $200, card. It can improve us. It doesn't necessarily improve us. See the difference?
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cookiecutter




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 23 2017, 8:26 am
The question is too ambiguous to answer properly. What does spiritual mean? Are people who get lost in a musical performance spiritual? Or do you mean only religious ritual? Same question about "better". Better in what way and by whose definition? I would consider a baalas chessed to be "better" than another random person, all else being equal. But a millennial might consider her to be a naive "people pleaser" who needs to break the habit to achieve true happiness and career success.

Over the years I have become pretty cynical about the Torah's ability to improve people. It seems to me like naturally kind, generous people who would be kind and generous regardless, find meaning for their inclinations in the Torah. At the same time, people who are naturally more self-centered don't really change much. So it looks like religion is making all those kind people nicer but they would really have been nice regardless.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 23 2017, 9:14 am
imasoftov wrote:
One more time: Yoma 72b - "And this is the Torah that Moshe set (in Hebrew, sam, with a sin) ...", if one merits, it (the Torah) becomes a lifesaving medicine (in Hebrew, sam with a samech), if one does not, it becomes a deadly poison (as previous).


Yes, I saw this quoted by the Vilna Goan. Sam shel chayim, sam shel maves. But I didn't know that it originally comes from the Chumash, very interesting. Thank you.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 23 2017, 10:37 am
cookiecutter wrote:

Over the years I have become pretty cynical about the Torah's ability to improve people. It seems to me like naturally kind, generous people who would be kind and generous regardless, find meaning for their inclinations in the Torah. At the same time, people who are naturally more self-centered don't really change much. So it looks like religion is making all those kind people nicer but they would really have been nice regardless.


We must be in different circles, because I, personally, have not found that. Most of the people that I know who are learning very seriously are amazing and special, I really do see that. I always wondered about the exceptions, as there unfortunately are, but imasoftov explained that.
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amother
Gold


 

Post Thu, Nov 23 2017, 10:53 am
amother wrote:
1.Do you think people who are very spiritual are usually better people?


What do you mean by ''people who are very spiritual''? I have no clue what you mean. Can you give at least one or two examples? Thanks!
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simba




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 23 2017, 11:30 am
I can think of spiritual people who made very poor and immoral decisions.
Killing in the name of allah does not make you a good person.

On a separate topic, if someone follows the Torah and emulates the ways of HaShem then they are on the right journey towards self-refinement.
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