Are people who are very spiritual usually better people?

Stars

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 1:24 pm

Hell no.

chicco

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 1:33 pm

I've always been offended by the term 'spiritual.' What does it even mean? I've pretty much only heard it in the context of defending people who dafka do whatever they want. It's ok that xyz... she's vert spiritual. Um ok. Well in that case, general rules don't apply to me either. I am 'spiritual.'

mandksima

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 2:20 pm

I don't think everyone agrees on what spiritual means so it is hard to answer so that everyone would agree.

Spirituality is usually connotative to mindfulness. Making sure your thoughts and actions have meaning behind them and help you reach a certain goal that is more connected to humanity as a whole as well as yourself and less from mundane physical pleasures. Even an atheist could want to follow that just in order to lead a more peaceful life, more minimalistic, more altruistic. Even atheists want to be nice people and helpful to society. Most people equate spirituality to G-d but I don't think everyone does and there are many who believe in the idea of Hashem and still may decide they don't need any formal religion and definitely not adherence to rules from an ancient Torah in order for them to connect to higher realms. They are just not understanding why Hashem made the world and why the mitzvot are 100% necessary to reach any real spirituality. Anyone has the ability to reach elevated mental capabilities with effort (like a spiritual guru self-levitating or bending a spoon or telekinesis) but they won't do anything to bring them closer to Hashem.

When the Torah is used to gain spirituality, it means someone is doing the mitzvot in order to get closer to Hashem. Each mitzvah was designed to bring us closer and bridge the gap between the physical and spiritual worlds. We need to use our physical bodies to reach spirituality and those without Torah are missing that intrinsic piece. It isn't only about our mind. The ultimate goal for the world after Moshiach is a world where the physical body is perfected and can shed easily when the soul wants to go free and can be put back on when the soul needs it. It would be to serve the soul only and not to serve itself. Doing efforts to reach that goal now, when we still have free will, is how we do spirituality according to the Torah. A lot of it doesn't make sense to us because we don't understand how Hashem created the world and it's different levels that take us higher. Because Hashem first created the Torah and then the world, we can trust that everything we need to get close to Hashem exists here and we just have to access it all through the mitzvot.

As others have said, there are those who interests are not getting closer to Hashem so they use some parts of the Torah to serve their best interests. They obviously have no spiritual goals and are misrepresenting the Torah and Judaism. The Torah does not create good people, people have to chose the Torah and Hashem and they can become better people by moving away from a focus on their own interests and trying to serve Hashem's interests.

amother

Cobalt

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 5:15 pm

Absolutely not. Unfortunately ppl that are spiritual seem more special but practically speaking I have seen it be far from case

eeesss

Sun, Dec 31 2017, 4:33 pm

I believe that bad is the antithesis of spiritual, that is, if you’re truly spiritual. While everyone has a yetzer hara and everyone does aveiros, so some things may actions of a spiritual person might seem bad, I believe that on the whole, spiritual people try to be good.

yogabird

Sun, Dec 31 2017, 4:42 pm

Stars wrote:

Hell no.

This ^

yogabird

Sun, Dec 31 2017, 4:44 pm

Eisenshia wrote:

When I picture the yetzer hara, he is cloaked in a tallis.

amother

Crimson

Sun, Dec 31 2017, 4:57 pm

Usually they say non jews that are religious are usually more moral the the ones that aren't. Besides the Jihadist

marina

Sun, Dec 31 2017, 5:23 pm

No and No

Nothing makes you a better person other than shame, experience, and hard work.

southernbubby

Sun, Dec 31 2017, 5:43 pm

marina wrote:

No and No

Nothing makes you a better person other than shame, experience, and hard work.

The definition of good person or better person has to start somewhere. For us Jews, it is defined as someone who practices chessed, which is outlined as that which was introduced to the world by our forefather Abraham. However, not all chessed is beneficial so his son Yitzchok introduced gevurah but gevurah won't make a nice person out of someone so along came Yaacov which blended the two so that a good person could be someone with kindness as well as boundaries.

Basically what I am trying to say with my diatribe is that how to be a better person comes from the Torah.

amother

Pink

Sun, Dec 31 2017, 7:27 pm

Short answer:
1. No
2. Yes

I find that people who consider themselves "spiritual", often use this to excuse themselves from working on themselves. They also are condescending to those three consider shallow. A "friend" of my happy go lucky sister once told me that she was concerned with my sister's supposed shallowness. Later that year, my sister's group of friends including this friend made a series of bad choices landing them in trouble and confused. My sister was the only one who didn't get caught up in it. she told me that her friends convinced themselves that they were smarter then everyone else. That they were "thinkers" etc. She told them, "stop thinking so hard. Take your ego out of this and it's obvious what is right and what is wrong." (BTW, this little sister of mine, who does have a chilled personality, is one of the most worked on people I know. She is constantly looking on improving herself, but she is very matter of fact about it and does not come off as spiritual.)

The Torah is our guide to what's right and wrong. But it's not enough to learn. That is why we have mussar and chassidus. We have to work on our middos constantly.
A good tip from my father. (Chassidish Rosh yeshiva). Beware of doing things " l'shem shamayim" and be wary of those who claim to be doing it "Lshma". Doing things "L'shma" clouds one's judgement like nothing else. You can come to justify lots of injustice unfortunately.

crust

Sun, Dec 31 2017, 7:46 pm

amother wrote:

Usually they say non jews that are religious are usually more moral the the ones that aren't. Besides the Jihadist

Spirituality has zero with religion.

crust

Sun, Dec 31 2017, 7:50 pm

marina wrote:

Nothing makes you a better person other than shame, experience, and hard work.

Marina this point is very interesting to me. I've heard about hard work experience and failure but I never heard that shame can actually get you somewhere. I saw shame as crushing and crippling.

I would love to hear or read more about it. Thanks.

southernbubby

Sun, Dec 31 2017, 8:00 pm

crust wrote:

I did learn something about if someone shames another person and that other person remains silent and does not retort or humiliate the other person in return, the person who did the shaming will lose something in Olam Haba and the shamed person will gain it or will experience some sort of blessing while the person who did the shaming will have the opposite.

If a person feels ashamed of his own misdeeds, then he can try to correct them. I wonder if that is what Marina means by shame.

crust

Sun, Dec 31 2017, 8:09 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Yes I heard that a person being humiliated has a koach to bring a yeshua.

The Radak calls shame an 'easy remedy' for kaparos avonos. He sais it's the easiest type of yesurim and when people would know the value of it they would beg Hashem that they should be humiliated. (Ftr I am just quoting. I am not anywhere near that level of begging for bushas...)

I'm waiting for marina to explain what she meant.

Surrendered

Sun, Dec 31 2017, 9:01 pm

Spirituality brings a person closer to Hashem but doesn't make them better people. A person can learn all day but not have middos tovos.
If they dress ultra... but judge & gossip, they are nothing more holy than any random person.

Sfmpaf

Tue, Jan 02 2018, 6:35 pm

I personally know people who think they are better people because they read books and go to shiurim on diff spiritual matters when in reality these people have done and said some really nasty and hurtful things....

amother

Teal

Tue, Jan 02 2018, 8:47 pm

And my mother goes to shiurim and reads seforim and hurts me and my siblings to the core. The words that come out of her mouth is shocking to say the least. I wish she learned less and just controlled her mouth the world would be a better place

amother

Teal

Tue, Jan 02 2018, 8:50 pm

I think it's nice to learn but to quote " I'm ain derech eretz Erin torah"

Without middos and following in the middos of Hashem which it should really be then nothing sticks and in fact is shaming hakodosh Baruch hu.

Ok so you can be spiritual but be the cruelest person on the planet. No the Torah is there if you will accept it. If not then don't embarrass it.

mandksima

Wed, Jan 03 2018, 1:46 am

Ah, but going to shiurim and learning Torah does not mean a person is spiritual. They could be putting up a show or are just interested in learning for academic reasons and treat the Torah and its laws (especially derech eretz behavior) like a sociology course - learning about other religions for reasons and people's behavior, nothing to do with wanting to live that lifestyle in its true sense. So, of course, they are not better people. They like the benefit of a community but they don't fear Hashem.

I think people are looking at bad examples of people trying to be spiritual. They will answer to Hashem for sure and are not spiritual, meaning they aren't trying to get close to and understand Hashem.

What makes someone righteous? Someone who wants as much a spiritual life as can be in this world and emulates Hashem in His kindness. So, they are better people.