Are people who are very spiritual usually better people?

southernbubby

Wed, Jan 03 2018, 9:17 am

We don't all start at the same place. For example, someone who always had whatever they needed might be more giving than someone who rarely had whatever they needed or it could go the other way as well, people who never suffered want don't understand what that feel like so they don't respond with kindness and the formerly or even currently poor do understand and try to help.

marina

Tue, Jan 09 2018, 1:48 pm

crust wrote:

Marina this point is very interesting to me. I've heard about hard work experience and failure but I never heard that shame can actually get you somewhere. I saw shame as crushing and crippling.

I would love to hear or read more about it. Thanks.

An easy example is a mom who yells and smacks. She posts about it on her favorite message board, gets a lot of flack, feels ashamed, decides to change, and then does the very hard work of changing her immediate response to stressors. Now she is calmer and her kids are better off. That was initiated by the societal shaming that the mom felt when everyone told her off.

southernbubby

Tue, Jan 09 2018, 1:55 pm

marina wrote:

That's a very healthy response to shame but I am wondering how often people change their behavior for the better, due to shame. Some mothers might defend their behaviors and it wouldn't be until they were threatened with something, such as loss of custody, that they would actually shape up.

marina

Wed, Jan 10 2018, 2:03 am

southernbubby wrote:

All the time- so much of the mommy culture wars are about shaming the other person into something or other, whether it's natural labor or breastfeeding or staying home or organic baby food only or whatever. Some ideas are useless and some are important but that's how society works- it shames you if you don't conform, so many people do.

southernbubby

Wed, Jan 10 2018, 9:00 am

marina wrote:

Forced social conformity may be the way society works but I don't see the woman who was forced to breastfeed so that she could win the approval of those on Facebook to be a spiritually superior person. She may feel like the world's biggest martyr. We are talking about what makes you or me a better person and is it my spirituality or is it my political party? If I make a kugel for a new mother or other individual in need, or go an assist a sick person, or whatever the good deed is, who am I looking for brownie points from? If I feel that I am doing the will of Hashem by peeling all of those potatoes for the kugel, than I am doing it to be spiritual and if the community is going to praise me for my dedication in sending kugels, than it has nothing to do with spirituality and everything to do with social pressure and the need to conform and fit in. The result is still the same; the person in need receives the kugel.

PinkFridge

Wed, Jan 10 2018, 9:10 am

marina wrote:

Phenomenal if it happens.
I just hope that the shamers are sticking to tochacha guidelines. Every chinuch expert says that obnoxious shaming won't have lasting value. OK, we're talking about adults, not kids, but still.

relish

Wed, Jan 10 2018, 9:16 am

Marina, your theory makes sense, but the brain research shows that sending blame or shame will cause harm to the person on the receiving end. It's a painful emotion, and the receiver will most likely do one of two things
1) pass it on to the next victim
2) take it in and run the tape inside their head (you're wrong, you're bad, you deserve to be punished)

It's just human nature.
I wonder what would happen if people responded without shaming the individual, and instead followed the rules and guidelines of tochacha.
Perhaps the change resulting from that would be positive and long lasting, and around?