The Golden rule | Imamother

amother

Beige

Wed, Nov 29 2017, 7:57 pm

He who has the gold makes the rules. How far does this saying go? There's a wide spectrum of financial assistance. Fully supported for years on end vs supported for 1 year vs partial support vs one time gift for a down payment vs 100 different other ways parents might choose to help grown children. Do the parents who gifted the down payment have the right to use that fact to make demands ten years later? But then, even if we agree that a family that gets full support has to expect some measure of control, is there anything in which they have the right to say no, you don't get a say? What would you say are the boundaries of that saying?

amother

Beige

Wed, Nov 29 2017, 9:10 pm

zaq wrote:

Every family has to decide that for itself.

But is there a point at which something is objectively out of line? To pick an extreme example, let's say parents are fully supporting and use this to say I get to tell you what underwear you have to wear. These people have clearly decided that this is acceptable, but I think most people would say that's taking things too far.

amother

Cerise

Wed, Nov 29 2017, 9:56 pm

In my case: because my parents bought our house and provide monetary support I owe them tremendous hakaras hatov (even if they wouldn't have but all the more so...) therefore, if a request is made of me, unless it is extremely difficult or goes against our values I will say yes. This can include doing favors that would require going out in the rain with children or would require me to give up private time with my husband. However if something is too difficult (for example I was asked to travel overseas for yom tov with my young children and didn't want to) I politely and firmly said no.
So yes, there is control to some degree. But no not complete control

amother

Turquoise

Wed, Nov 29 2017, 9:58 pm

amother wrote:

A gift should be.....a gift. Please give me an example of something that parents who provide lots of support SHOULD have a right to impose (FORCE) on their children? I think kibud av v'eim is important. I don't think it allows for meddling and interfering.

amother

Beige

Wed, Nov 29 2017, 10:12 pm

amother wrote:

I don't know, that's my question. On the one hand, I can see if the supporting parents expect the kids to always be available for stuff, that's not totally reasonable (is there anyone who isn't sometimes unavailable?) but I would also think the children in that situation really should probably be prepared to do more than is entirely reasonable. Does the calculus change if we're talking about support that is long in the past or a one time gift? This is all completely hypothetical for me. Personally, we fall in the category of one time gift (down payment) and it never came with any strings, though of course we owe tremendous hakaras hatov. But I do see the saying bandied about or people told what do you expect, of course they'll meddle. But even if there are some understandable strings, is there a limit? What would that limit be?

amother

Taupe

Wed, Nov 29 2017, 10:42 pm

Notsobusy wrote:

I think everyone has to be reasonable. Parents have to understand that supporting your children doesn't give you any control over their lives. And their children should have the appropriate amount of hakaras hatov and treat their parents accordingly.

They have to? Well, many aren't understanding this. Mine weren't. We were stuck in a choice of allow them to invade our private lives completely or figure out how to come up with massive sums of money on our own. (In our case we worked and paid for our regular expenses but were dealing with IF and needed huge sums to pay for expensive doctors and surgical procedures. My parents decided to pay for it all but that it entitled them to choose doctors, sit in at doctor's appointments, and help make medical decisions. I hated it and still resent them for it to this day but we went along because we couldn't see how else we would ever find the money to start a family).

So, yes, money given to help support children should be a gift without strings, but sometimes it isn't and those children have a choice to make. It doesn't make any difference what it "should" be. It matters weighing which is worth more: money with strings or no money but total autonomy.

Notsobusy

Wed, Nov 29 2017, 10:52 pm

amother wrote:

I'm so sorry for your experience. The op asked how far her saying goes that he who has the gold makes the rules. In my opinion they should not be able to make the rules and they should not feel at all entitled to make any decisions.

I don't blame you for resenting your parents and I understand why you made the chose to take their money. You literally had no choice. Your parents were 100% wrong.

amother

Beige

Wed, Nov 29 2017, 11:06 pm

Notsobusy wrote:

Yeah, this is what I'm getting at. Of course one can "just" choose not to take the money so as to avoid the potential strings, and of course one "can" just exert control over those to whom they've given money. Anyone can do anything, but it's never really that simple. I'm just trying to define the boundaries morally, not whether particular individuals do the right thing or not. What are the moral obligations of the gifter? What would be considered crossing the line? And do those boundaries differ according to the level help given.

amother

Violet

Wed, Nov 29 2017, 11:50 pm

amother wrote:

So, we had this issue, big time. My father was extremely generous and decided to buy dh and I a house. Everyone I know is envying us. But... there are HUGE strings attached. So, he decided what kind of house, what kind of neighborhood, and how much money in upgrades, and what type of upgrades. If he liked it, good, if not, then we couldn't do it. How do we explain that WE will be living in this house, not him? Forget it. But, at least in this particular area, he did have a right to decide how to spend his money, so we had to swallow it. And we do have a nice house which we didn't have to pay for.

But... and this is a big but... he has always been extremely controlling and bossy (can you tell?) we had to tell him every detail of our lives - which doctor we use, when we go, why we go, which medication, how much we spend on car insurance, gas - why do we spend so much - you get the picture.

I was literally getting clinically depressed from this - we couldn't afford to give him back the house, but I couldn't live this way... it was a catch 22.

So we called our Rav. B'h our Rav said that we don't owe him anything. He said that the money is a gift, and it's ours. We don't owe him a constant and clear window into every detail of our lives.

We do have have tremendous hakaros hatov for this - but does he deserve more kibbud uv v'aim than my in-laws, who are not wealthy and have barely given us a penny? No. Both sets of parents deserve the same amount of kibbud. Period.

So that's my experience.

RebekahsMom

Thu, Nov 30 2017, 12:28 am

My family’s rule is “family first, and when someone needs help, you drop everything and help them”. What? You were going out on a date? Well you still can if you help Dad move first. Don’t make plans on ____, because we’re all helping your brother with his house. Hey, you’re home, we need you to watch the baby next week.

It kind of annoyed me when I was younger, call it selfishness. My husband hated it. But when my brother was there because water was coming through my ceiling, or my car broke down and I needed to borrow theirs, or Dad fixed my bathroom, it made me appreciate the strong bond we had.

The only downside, my husband realized how horribly selfish his family was, always taking but never giving, and it really put a strain on their relationship.

amother

Vermilion

Thu, Nov 30 2017, 6:47 am

Only immature selfish parents ask their children for things that would take them away from their husbands or children. It's become so normal we have lost a healthy perspective. So sad. Growing up my parent's did not seem as "devoted" as many of my friends. They worked long hours and were not very involved... Today I am proud of them for being mature and real. They give without EVER asking ANYTHING. They have NEVER inconvenienced us. They never ask us to name our kids certain names or other ridiculous demands I've heard of. And you can be sure we give to them in return as much time and love and devotion without ever feeling forced. Time for ppl to search within themselves as to why they believe money is their power