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How much do you think about North Korea?
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LovesHashem




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 30 2017, 2:14 am
DrMom wrote:
What makes you think that a retaining wall of the platform on which the Beit HaMikdash stood is divinely protected, but the Beit HaMikdash itself could be destroyed -- twice?

If you have ever seen horrific photos of Hiroshima or Nagasaki victims, you would not be so flippant. There are no words that adequately capture the horror.


The kosel was a part of the outer wall of the beis hamikdash, and although I don't have a source, I have heard there is one. If anyone here knows it, I think it's in the gemarah somewhere.

Anyways, seriously speaking- if Hashem wanted to kill me chas vishalom, he doesn't need North Korea's help, or ISIS's help, or anyone else's help. If I'm meant to die at a certain time, I will die, whether it be by atomic weapon or old age or anything else. Everyday I wake up Hashem gives me life anew. I'm not so worried. Sometimes we forget Hashem holds the key to our life every second, not just when we are threatened by nuclear weaponry.
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moonstone




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 30 2017, 2:29 am
LovesHashem wrote:
And so? There's a dozen or so countries around Israel that want to kill me too.
I just don't think about it, because, well, does it matter if it's ISIS, NK, Syria, Gaza? Every day it's someone else. I have better things to think about....I just have emunah Hashem won't blow me up today.

Anyway I read somewhere that the kosel will never come down, so I figure if there is a nuclear war, I'm going to camp out there.


I wouldn't count on that.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 30 2017, 2:32 am
LovesHashem wrote:
Anyways, seriously speaking- if Hashem wanted to kill me chas vishalom, he doesn't need North Korea's help, or ISIS's help, or anyone else's help. If I'm meant to die at a certain time, I will die, whether it be by atomic weapon or old age or anything else. Everyday I wake up Hashem gives me life anew. I'm not so worried. Sometimes we forget Hashem holds the key to our life every second, not just when we are threatened by nuclear weaponry.

So then we shouldnt care about North Korea at all?

Or any foreign defense policy whatsoever?

What exactly are you saying?
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 30 2017, 3:06 am
LovesHashem wrote:
The kosel was a part of the outer wall of the beis hamikdash

It is a retaining wall, built by Herod while enlarging Har Habayit.
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LovesHashem




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 30 2017, 4:16 am
DrMom wrote:
So then we shouldnt care about North Korea at all?

Or any foreign defense policy whatsoever?

What exactly are you saying?


Not exactly. We need to do normal hishtadlus. If there is a real threat like a tornado nearby, you go to your basement and daven. That's hishtadlus.

Right now, I'm not quite sure what the hishtadlus is for me, a regular married woman living in Israel. I'm not in the knesset, I'm not president, and currently there is no immediate threat that I can do something practical about. So were supposed to sit on imamother and say "Oy vey! I'm so nervous..." etc?

If it interested you, follow the politics, the policies, trump's twitter, I don't know.
But I feel like I have no impact in this area. I daven Hashem should keep us safe, but I don't see any other practical helpful thing for me to do about all these things like NK, ISIS, etc.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 30 2017, 4:18 am
etky wrote:
Well, that was the conception before the churban (Yirmiyahu perek 7). Much good it did them.
Then again, their fate had already been sealed a generation earlier. I like to believe (hope) that our situation is different....
Regarding NK - though there are more imminent threats to our security here, like Iran, I have a weird feeling that this situation is not going to end well at all, for the world at large. So it concerns me quite a bit, even if Israel presumably is not in the immediate line of fire.
I think that in retrospect, historians are going to be incredulous at the complacency of many, and will bemoan the fact that the threat was not given greater credence and eradicated by stronger measures earlier in the game.
I am also very discomfited that the US President who is up against this madman is also impetuous in nature and thinks nothing of goading his rivals with personal attacks that, in this case, could further provoke an already irrational and egomaniacal adversary
.


I am more worried about the liberal idiots our president and country are up against in negotiating with North Korea. They consistently undermine him and us enabling Kim Jong-un. Do these people have any brains?

Kim Jong-un is a rational actor, so is Donald Trump. When looking at North Korea from a historical perspective, where we are makes sense. I don't like it, but it is rational. Kim Jong-un will not act if his actions mean the assured destruction of him and his dynasty. Generals in charge of nuclear devices saying they won't carry out Donald Trump's orders embolden Kim Jong-un.

In answer to the thread title. I think about North Korea often.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 30 2017, 5:29 am
Squishy wrote:
I am more worried about the liberal idiots our president and country are up against in negotiating with North Korea. They consistently undermine him and us enabling Kim Jong-un. Do these people have any brains?

Kim Jong-un is a rational actor, so is Donald Trump. When looking at North Korea from a historical perspective, where we are makes sense. I don't like it, but it is rational. Kim Jong-un will not act if his actions mean the assured destruction of him and his dynasty. Generals in charge of nuclear devices saying they won't carry out Donald Trump's orders embolden Kim Jong-un.

In answer to the thread title. I think about North Korea often.


I think about it too and have read that our anti-missile capability in questionable as to it's capacity to intercept the missile in space. Why do you say, however, that the leaders of both of these countries are rational actors? They both seem to be playing matador and bull.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 30 2017, 5:46 am
southernbubby wrote:
I think about it too and have read that our anti-missile capability in questionable as to it's capacity to intercept the missile in space. Why do you say, however, that the leaders of both of these countries are rational actors? They both seem to be playing matador and bull.


Both of their actions serve to keep the leaders in power.
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shoshanim999




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 30 2017, 6:02 am
Squishy wrote:
I am more worried about the liberal idiots our president and country are up against in negotiating with North Korea. They consistently undermine him and us enabling Kim Jong-un. Do these people have any brains?

Kim Jong-un is a rational actor, so is Donald Trump. When looking at North Korea from a historical perspective, where we are makes sense. I don't like it, but it is rational. Kim Jong-un will not act if his actions mean the assured destruction of him and his dynasty. Generals in charge of nuclear devices saying they won't carry out Donald Trump's orders embolden Kim Jong-un.

In answer to the thread title. I think about North Korea often.



But the risk your taking by considering Kim Jong "rational", is that we allow him to continue his nuclear ambitions and add to his arsenal the deadliest weapon imaginable. The thought being that he will never use it because if he does, it will be the end of North Korea, and quite possibly, a part of the world since the U.S. would have to retaliate in a similar fashion and other countries would get involved. Of all the leaders in the world with nuclear capabilities, Kim Jung would arguably be the one we trust the least. From a numbers standpoint, and this is cruel to say, it probably is worth it to bomb North Korea now, let Kim Jung fire missiles into South Korea and kill a million people in a single day, as opposed to stand by another year and let N.K. complete their nuclear ambitions and one day risk a real nuclear war that could kill an unimaginable number of people.
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Laiya




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 30 2017, 6:17 am
sneakermom wrote:
I’ve watched some docs on North Korea. It’s disturbing and yet fascinating in a very sad way.

Basically it’s a whole country run as an extreme cult. From birth until death the regime controls everything about your life. You have no ability to choose where to live, where to go to school, where to work. And your level of allegiance is monitored and any perceived deviance of thought or behavior is punished by death or labor camps, including all relatives for three generations.

If you watch how the people throw themselves at the leader, and literally go crazy at the sight of him. You get a sense of the psychological pressure they are under to idolize and capitulate to the leader.

It’s very different then other dictators, even Hitler, who had roaring crowds waving flags as they passed by.

It’s complete hysteria, like how you might react if a Malach walked into the room.


Sorry I didn't read the post carefully. Just agreeing.

It's a horrific tragedy.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 30 2017, 6:19 am
shoshanim999 wrote:
It's an awesome achrayis to kill many millions of people in a preemptive strike. That scenario is very unlikely to happen. There's a better chance that the U.S. will bomb N.K. nuclear facility which will cause N.K. to start launching rockets and missiles into S.K. which will force S.K. to obliterate N.K.. The complete annihilation of N.K. and the killing of millions of innocent civilians is not going to come from the U.S.. South Korea, which is in much greater danger, will potentially be forced to carry this out.


The world's not ready for another Hiroshima.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 30 2017, 6:25 am
shoshanim999 wrote:
But the risk your taking by considering Kim Jong "rational", is that we allow him to continue his nuclear ambitions and add to his arsenal the deadliest weapon imaginable. The thought being that he will never use it because if he does, it will be the end of North Korea, and quite possibly, a part of the world since the U.S. would have to retaliate in a similar fashion and other countries would get involved. Of all the leaders in the world with nuclear capabilities, Kim Jung would arguably be the one we trust the least. From a numbers standpoint, and this is cruel to say, it probably is worth it to bomb North Korea now, let Kim Jung fire missiles into South Korea and kill a million people in a single day, as opposed to stand by another year and let N.K. complete their nuclear ambitions and one day risk a real nuclear war that could kill an unimaginable number of people.

Kim Jong-un is rational. Now go from there.

I don't say to allow him his nuclear ambitions. I say view this from a rational prospective. He has made himself a world power and a leader with the appearance of a cult of 25 million. He also solidified succession.

How do we blow up his underground bunker? Do we blow up his population and leave him in place? What do you suggest?

He is vulnerable to his population getting information. He controls them by controlling information along with everything else.

The right pressure is to have China pressure him. Not including him in the up coming talks is a smart move.

Don't forget Donald Trump is smart. He is much smarter than everyone gives him credit for. He wants a second term. He also wants to solidfy succession.
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lavenderchimes




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 30 2017, 7:26 am
groisamomma wrote:
So why haven't we done that yet?? Isn't there some clause somewhere about killing people if it means saving many more people. There has to be, it only makes sense. I confess I know nothing about any of this, but feom reading these posts it seems pretty clear to me.

(It reminds me of some inane law I once heard...you can't shoot your gun at an intruder unless you know for a fact they will kill you. Um, why wait until I'm dead to retaliate?)


In the time it takes our missiles to reach North Korea, they will have launched missiles and killed a lot of people. There is also no guarentee that our preemptive strike will destroy their leader or all of their missiles. Therefore, chances are very high that a "preemptive strike" will actually be us begining a war with North Korea. At the very least, our preemptive strike will result in thousands or millions of people being killed by the missiles that North Korea launched while our preemptive strike was being executed.
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leah233




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 30 2017, 7:34 am
LovesHashem wrote:
The kosel was a part of the outer wall of the beis hamikdash, and although I don't have a source, I have heard there is one. If anyone here knows it, I think it's in the gemarah somewhere.


It is a midrash rabba shir hashirim 2:9:4 (that Hashem swore it will never be destroyed)


Last edited by leah233 on Thu, Nov 30 2017, 8:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 30 2017, 7:49 am
etky wrote:

I am also very discomfited that the US President who is up against this madman is also impetuous in nature and thinks nothing of goading his rivals with personal attacks that, in this case, could further provoke an already irrational and egomaniacal adversary.


This. I am very concerned that Trump is escalating an already precarious situation.
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shoshanim999




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 30 2017, 8:06 am
Squishy wrote:
Kim Jong-un is rational. Now go from there.

I don't say to allow him his nuclear ambitions. I say view this from a rational prospective. He has made himself a world power and a leader with the appearance of a cult of 25 million. He also solidified succession.

How do we blow up his underground bunker? Do we blow up his population and leave him in place? What do you suggest?

He is vulnerable to his population getting information. He controls them by controlling information along with everything else.

The right pressure is to have China pressure him. Not including him in the up coming talks is a smart move.

Don't forget Donald Trump is smart. He is much smarter than everyone gives him credit for. He wants a second term. He also wants to solidfy succession.
[u]


I think your presenting a 3rd option in China pressuring N.K. as a legitimate method to resolve this when there really is no 3rd option. Kim Jung wants a bomb because he believes that it is the best way to ensure his survival as leader. Other countries like Libya and Iraq had leaders that were overthrown in part because their leaders couldn't threaten the ultimate retaliation. No amount of pressure from China will change this. Also, China doesn't necessarily want Kim Jung overthrown because of that potential chaos that would follow with many millions of poor and brain washed refugees crossing the border into China.

The reality is that there are only 2 ways this will play out:
1. The U.S. bomb N.K. and takes out their nuclear facility. Most likely Kim Jung will retaliate by launched thousands of missiles into Seoul, which is densely populated with tall buildings and kill a million people. (Think Manhattan)
2. The U.S. does nothing, (I suppose they continue to threaten with sanctions, and pressure from China, but that has NEVER worked and there's no reason to believe it will suddenly work when N.K. is as close as ever to completing their nuclear weapons) and hopes that Kim Jung is sane enough to never use his deadly weapons.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 30 2017, 8:25 am
DrMom wrote:
Makes you wonder what Bill Cinton was thinking when he enabled them to get nuclear capabilities back in the 90s. And of course, one of the negotiators and architects of this brilliant deal (in addition to the doofus Jimmy Carter) was Wendy Sherman -- also involved in enabling Iran to go nuclear in the wonderful 2015 Iran Deal.

And NK and Iran are allies.

Gee -- what could possibly go wrong?

Each President averts a short-term crisis by making some deal which then snowballs into a much more deadly threat after he has conveniently left the office.


Its not correct to state that Clinton "enabled North Korea to get nuclear capabilities." There's plenty of blame to go around, but nothing is that simple.

NK already had a plutonium reactor. And there was no question what it was for, since it wasn't even connected to the power grid. So, had Clinton done nothing, North Korea would have had nuclear capabilities long, long ago.

Clinton entered into what was known as the "Agreed Framework" in 1994. Essentially, an international consortium planned to replace the North’s plutonium reactor with two light-water reactors; in the meantime, the United States would supply the North with 500,000 tons of heavy fuel oil every year to make up for the theoretical loss of the reactor (which, as we know, never prodcued energy) while the new ones were built. The theory of the deal was that, with the plant shuttered and the plutonium under the close watch of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), North Korea would not be able to produce a bomb.

Hey, what could go wrong?

Bush became president in 2001. Pretty soon after that, intelligence agencies determined that North Korea was cheating on the agreement by trying to develop nuclear material through another method — highly enriched uranium. (Are these the same agencies that found the infamous "Weapons of Mass Destruction"? Who knows?) The Bush administration sent an envoy who confronted North Korea, which allegedly confirmed it in 2002. (There's some question about whether that was properly interpreted, but its pretty clear it happened at some time.) But, Iraq. Anyway, Bush administration terminated the supply of fuel oil, North Korea kicked out the U.N. inspectors, restarted the nuclear plant and began developing its nuclear weapons, using the material in radioactive fuel rods that previously had been under the watch of the IAEA.

Within two years, U.S. intelligence analysts concluded North Korea was using the plutonium to create nuclear weapons.

Lots of questions. Lots of blame.

In any case, back to the original question.

During the Cold War, "mutually assured destruction" assumed that you had relatively sane leaders on both sides of the proverbial button. I don't think we can assume that with Kim Jung Un.
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Moonlight




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 30 2017, 10:01 am
I personally am quite terrified. I think US should destroy NK right now. We have to protect the US before we protect SK. I am scared for my children. Terrified.
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BadTichelDay




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 30 2017, 10:11 am
LovesHashem wrote:

Anyways, seriously speaking- if Hashem wanted to kill me chas vishalom, he doesn't need North Korea's help, or ISIS's help, or anyone else's help. If I'm meant to die at a certain time, I will die, whether it be by atomic weapon or old age or anything else. Everyday I wake up Hashem gives me life anew. I'm not so worried. Sometimes we forget Hashem holds the key to our life every second, not just when we are threatened by nuclear weaponry.


Just wanted to say, I agree 100%. This.
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perquacky




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 30 2017, 10:31 am
I didn't think about the Cold War when I was a kid, and I don't spend too much time dwelling on North Korea. Or on terrorism on the streets of New York, where I work. Or mass murderers.

I watch the news and push it out of my thoughts.

If I didn't, I'd never get out of bed in the morning.
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