Baseless Love / Baseless Hate

Ozmom

Wed, Aug 03 2005, 4:52 pm

no offence but I think that article is a bit over the top.
Do people really hate like that???
I'm not saying that I don't fail at sinas chinam.
what I'm saying is if I ever feel dislike towards someone, its not because I want to feel dislike to the person.
On the contrary I hate having that feeling. It makes me feel sick and depresses me.
in my experience and experience from my kids, the kids that hate the way that article describe is most commonly the bully kids.
my kids only 'hate' the kid who hurts them deliberately, physically or emotionally
even "hate" I think is too strong. They complain about it but I rarely hear them say "I hate her/him". Usually its "she/he is so annoying" or "she/he is such a bully. but to hate merely coz it makes them feel good? No
If someone upsets me I felt hurt by them but I don't hate
sure there are those I 'dislike'. A bully from school who made my early years miserable and I haven't seen her since, haven't been given the opportunity to see her as a mature adult, so yeah I still feel a so called "hate" towards her. but do I really hate her? I don't know her so how can I hate her.

What I hate is in fact that childhood version of her, not even her but the nasty streak inside her.
Can I begin to love her?
Sure if I think about it, but I've been too busy trying to push the memory of her away.
And when I say that, its not 'hate' as the prevailing feeling but 'hurt'.
So really what I'm saying is its not always 'hate' that we feel but maybe anger, hurt, etc
I just find it hard to believe that people hate so easily for such stupid reasons. maybe I'm being naive
you really think those nitwits at the bus stop really hated the man???

Motek

Thu, Aug 04 2005, 9:45 pm

Ozmom wrote:

no offence but I think that article is a bit over the top.
Do people really hate like that???

I've been thinking about what sinas chinam is. After all, as you write, nobody thinks THEY hate for NO REASON. We ALWAYS have a reason to be annoyed, upset, turned off. Many of us think that WE don't hate.

So who actually feels sinas chinam anyway?

I did some research and here is an excerpt of something I read that will explain why the article is so right on target:

Quote:

First let us realize that there is a difference between baseless hatred and hatred that is based upon something. Hatred that is based upon something is a hatred that is caused by an external cause. An example, a man insists on playing his radio so loud that it disturbs his neighbor. If upon request of the neighbor, he refuses to turn down the volume, that hatred, which is a direct result from the inconsideration and aggravation, is the direct outcome of a specific act. If the man were to respect the neighbor's needs and lower the volume, then the hatred would dissipate. Since this hatred is based on something, it is not baseless. Cancel the basis, and the hatred is cancelled.

Baseless hatred is different. It is not caused by an external event triggered by another person. It is caused by the person himself. As an example, Reuven considered himself to be the smartest person in his shul. When Shimon, who was an obvious genius, moved in to the area and became a member of the shul, Reuven felt that Shimon’s mental capabilities were robbing him of his spotlight in the shul. Reuven began to belittle Shimon. This hatred is baseless. Shimon did nothing to cause Reuven to feel less about himself; Shimon just existed. It was Reuven’s own inner self that felt threatened and therefore sought to defend itself through malicious speech trying to degrade Shimon.

To eliminate baseless hatred, we all must be on constant guard. It is very difficult to identify since it lies in the subconscious of all people. We create justification why the other person is not correct. However, just by accepting our own personal limitations and realizing that, yes, there are others who have qualities superior to our own, we can diminish the inroads of this evil inclination into our daily lives. (Amos Ben Ami)

Ozmom

Sat, Aug 06 2005, 10:35 am

yeah it all makes sense. I just find it hard to believe that a person can hate as easily as the first article posted seemed to imply. the story of Shimon and reuven sounds more like a jealousy issue.
what he was feeling was jealousy which brings me back to the point I was making

yes hating a man because he wears a red shirt and thinking into it a whole lot of convoluted nonsense in order to hate him is baseless hate in all its glory and complete and utter mishigas. How many grown adults in a moral society actually hate like that?

all the rest doesn't seem like hate. what I was describing about my own feelings feels to me like hurt more then hate
the example with the neighbour and the disturbance seems like anger.
and so on and so forth.
So again, am I just being naive?
I guess Moshiach thinks I'm naive, coz where is our beis hamikdash if there is no sinas chinam?
am I making any sense?

Motek

Sun, Aug 07 2005, 7:12 pm

and what about love - there are people that we meet whom we just love (or like) immediately before we really get to know them, sometimes even before they open their mouths, there's just something that appeals to us about them

another thought about sinas chinam:

Quote:

At times there may be some minor grounds [for the individual's hatred], I.e., he finds some rational explanation for it. But in truth, this reason comes only after the fact. The particular reasons are not the cause of his enmity, but are found or invented later on: they are only a pretext and excuse for whitewashing and justifying his baseless hatred. But [in truth these reasons] are not genuine; he hates the other person only because he cannot tolerate him. (Heichaltzu)

Ozmom

Sun, Aug 07 2005, 9:23 pm

I still don't get it.
this is something I never understood
why would anyone hate for no reason if its a debilitaing emotion?
not talking about hitler and arafat etc I'm talking about lehavidil alfei havdolos your average yid.
ok so I agree with what its all saying in regards to what baseless hate is - its definition.
My question is do people actually have that.
I'm challenging the notion that what people think is hate is actually that.
so if you tell me "I hate her she was so horrid to me the things she did"
I'll ask you, do u actually hate her or are you feeling hurt, disappointed, let down, jealous whatever.
so basically I think that any other hate of another yid other then baseless hate, is an allusion, and I also don't believe that baseless hate is rampant because I find it hard to understand that people would want to feel that voluntarily and from your description it sounds like a voluntary emotion.

Motek

Tue, Aug 09 2005, 6:17 pm

Ozmom wrote:

where is our beis hamikdash if there is no sinas chinam?

in a sicha of Mattos-Masei 5751 the Rebbe says, "being that we are after the completion of our avoda throughout galus ... we are already on the threshhold of Geula and have certainly corrected the reason for galus [I.e. sinas chinam].

Therefore, the emphasis on Ahava Yisrael is by way of a "taste" and the beginning of the true and complete Geula which is connected with the point of achdus which is above all division, which is emphasized in the achdus of the Jewish people, from the aspect of the "yechida" which is within every Jew equally, which is a spark of the neshama of Moshiach, the "general yechida."

Motek

Thu, Jul 27 2006, 6:15 pm

All sinas chinam derives from similar feelings of unworthiness. Those who lack any confidence in themselves live their lives in constant comparison to others. They cast a critical eye on others so that they might feel better about themselves. The impulse to speak derogatorily of others reflects low self-esteem, which finds salve only in putting others down.

Rabbi Yisrael Salanter, founder of the Mussar (Jewish Ethics) Movement, once witnessed a boy pushing a playmate down in order to make himself taller. Reb Yisrael predicted that nothing would ever come of that boy. Had he tried instead to make himself taller instead by jumping up, said Reb Yisrael, there would have been hope.

Today we are all little boys pushing down our playmates. Religious Jews read the shocking statistics of school violence or of secular youth from well-to-do homes murdering complete strangers for thrills. Rather than crying, they experience a sense of smug satisfaction at the breakdown of secular society. And secular newspaper readers have an apparently insatiable desire for stories that will prove "the religious are no better.''
Sensing our own failures, we console ourselves that everybody else is doing worse. Our entire society is made up of people lacking a sense of positive achievement, who can sustain themselves only by cataloguing the failures of others.

Religious parents fearing that they have failed to instill their children with a deep love of Torah and mitzvos distract themselves by looking at others whose children have taken off their yarmulkes, or never wore them in the first place. Secular parents sensing that they have failed to pass on to their children any of the values on which they were raised avoid looking in the mirror by raging against "ultra-Orthodox" draft-dodgers in Israel.

The Torah cure for sinas chinam is to stop judging ourselves in comparison to others. For viewing others we need a benevolent eye that accentuates the positive. The critical, judgmental eye is best reserved for ourselves.

(Jonathan Rosenblum)
http://www.jewishworldreview.c.....1.asp

Ozmom

Thu, Nov 23 2006, 6:07 pm

my husband went to a farbrengen the other night for rosh chodesh kislev and one of the men speaking there said something along the lines of the following in regards to sinas chinam and ahavas chinam.

when it comes to gashmius, people are more willing to believe the good and not believe the bad.
meaning, that if someone complains about their tzoris people may question it and not fully believe it, but if someone says, about them that they really have a few million invested in stocks or hiding in the bank then we will be quick to accept and believe.

but then with ruchnius its in the reverse, that if someone tells you loshon hora about another person we are quick to believe and accept with out questioning it, but if we hear something nice about someone, we require proof that its true.

what do you think of this? do you think its true in general?

BeershevaBubby

Fri, Feb 16 2007, 12:34 am

I think it's all part of human nature.

It feeds our sense of self-worth to hear and readily believe bad about others, so we can think better of ourselves. It's easier to point fingers at others and tell them what they're doing wrong than to point the finger at oneself and tell ourselves there's a whole lot of room for improvement.

When we hear good about others, it reminds us of our own hardships and our lackings and therefore, in a spark of jealousy we want to think that "if I have it hard, so must everyone else.. after all, what did they do to deserve the money or whatever".

Ozmom

Fri, Feb 16 2007, 1:27 am

kemlion I hear you with the first part of your post.

its sort of like, if you have a bad impression of someone you are quicker to believe the loshon hora about them because then it verifys your impression of that person
but if you do like them you are more inclined to say you don't believe it because you don't want it to be true.

but about the second part of your post, the person who said this (in my first post) actually was posing the idea that people are quicker to believe that someone is having it good in their life versus they won't believe so easily that a person is having tzores.
I can see certain people being like that, but I'm not sure that people are like that in general.
I think some people do feel they require proof of someones problems.
my mother always used to say to me that if a person asks for tzedoka its not up to us to decide if they need it or not, but we just have to give.

I think(and I may be wrong) the point this person was bringing up was that unfortunately people are quick to believe the bad when it will hurt a persons reputation but slower to believe a persons tzores when they need our help.

Lechatchila Ariber

Wed, May 16 2007, 11:40 pm

Quote:

The Torah cure for sinas chinam is to stop judging ourselves in comparison to others. For viewing others we need a benevolent eye that accentuates the positive. The critical, judgmental eye is best reserved for ourselves.

and maybe thats where, the idea that someone else's faults are a reflection of our own come into play.

Quote:

Or maybe it's esteeming ourselves that's the problem and if we put our selves aside (known as being a shfal ruach, anav, bitul) we would not have baseless hatred.