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Forum
-> Parenting our children
-> Preschoolers
Do you let your 5 year old daughter wear pants?
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| Yes |
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| No |
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[ 94 ] |
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| Total Votes : 141 |
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DrMom
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 Mon, Dec 04 2017, 4:54 am
Girls were permitted to wear pants in my DD's gan at age 5, and I had no problem with that. She is very active it is easier for her to move around in pants. (In summer, she wore skirts with built-in shorts).
Now that she is in primary school, I put leggings or even loose pants under her skirt in winter.
Tights she might wear on Shabbat or for a simcha, but if she wore them to school she would most likely rip them to shreds during recess.
I don't have a problem with her wearing pants when she is not in school. They are warmer and more practical than skirts for active girls. She only wears loose-fitting pants when they are not worn under a skirt. To me, leggings worn alone are not acceptable as pants.
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33055
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Mon, Dec 04 2017, 6:49 am
| LovesHashem wrote: | Because in the RW world, you need to cover your full leg, and often times people will wear ankle socks and leggings and skin will show between them.
When I wear leggings, I do it with boots so you wouldn't see the patch, and anyways, it bothers me that the cold gets to this tiny strip of skin, so usually I wear socks that are a bit higher than ankle, they get 2-3 inches higher. But again, I don't have to with boots, it's only for my comfort. |
That part isn't on the radar. These girls wouldn't gap.
I think it may be more along the line of "denim is g○yish". The non-Jews wear leggings :arrow: . It's not considered a nice thing to do even with boots and high thick socks.
OTOH, I don't think it is nice when the bigger girls do an indoor mall rope climb and the harness lifts their skirts up to their thighs and everyone is exposed to their thighs in tights.
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saw50st8
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Mon, Dec 04 2017, 7:16 am
There is no minhag to wear tights only. It's totally a made up thing. 100%. There is a machlokes on whether you need to cover the lower portion of your leg. Since yeshivish/charedi people say yes, they usually use tights to cover. Then leggings came to be "in style" and the yeshivish/charedi crowd loves to stop anything that might possibly be "modern" from infiltrating so they banned leggings. Keep in mind, some "footless tights" are as thick as "leggings."
We personally hold that pants are ok, so my daughter can wear them forever if she wants. She won't wear tights but just about always wears leggings under her skirts and dresses.
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amother
Maroon
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Mon, Dec 04 2017, 8:19 am
| LovesHashem wrote: | That's a good question...this may or not be the answer.
Amother above posted some really good points, I have a few more I want to make. When we learned tzniyus we learned it the way they did. In many places in Israel, girls are unaware that boys are even attracted to them. Although yes, tzniyus is not taught correctly in other ways oftentimes, at least here, girls are tzniyus for themselves or Hashem, it's never about BOYS.
Now, in Israel a big concept in tzniyus is being mechubad, looking respactable. In RW society here, girls are not wearing long skirts or short skirts, only skirts in the middle. Down to the floor skirts, long hair, jean material, hoodies, words, etc are not considered respectable. Now, when I was in high school I was VERY frustrated with this idea, I moved from the USA for high school and I didn't understand this concept. Tzniyus meant covering your elbows, knees, etc. What the heck did it have to do with being respectable? What did that mean?!
Then in seminary we were taught the real meaning of tzniyus with a halacha teacher who is also a big rav and posek, we went all the way from the beginiging, from the FIRST time the word tzniyus is mentioned in tanach till the halachos of today, and explained it from inside the tanach.
The first time or second time...don't remember tzniyus is mentioned I believe it is talking about in wartime, how bnei yisroel would go to the bathroom as privately as possible, even on the battle feid, and cover up the hole they went in, and THIS is what Hashem calls "Tzniyus". According to this explanation, we understand tzniyus to mean being respectable, acting like a mentsch, a princess, a princes, looking refined, being refined, acting refined in all aspects of life.
So based on this information, a girl who is wearing pants may not look refined, a skirt or a dress with tights looks MORE refined on a girl or woman than pants or leggings. Even on a 3 year old, it gives off a more refined look. Would you dress a 3 year old girl in leggings or pants for a wedding? No, exactly my point.
So when a man is saying a bracha, he is talking to Hashem, if she isn't dressed refined, that he shouldn't be looking at her while saying the bracha.
I do NOT know if this is a explanation, I just came to this conclusion with my logic and knowledge of tzniyus. I never thought about it until I read the question, thank you for giving me the oppurtnunity to think more
In any case another answer may be, Hashem wants us to teach chinuch to young children, exactly what should the cutoff age be? A man can't look after a woman turns 5? 10? I mean many years ago, girls were married off at three you know... |
My husband asked our dyen when is the cutoff time to start wearing tznius. He said at age 3 a girl stops looking like a baby and start looking like a person so that age. If the kid is very small and tiny like my kids are then age 5... so depends if the kid looks like a baby or a person according to my dyen...
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amother
Maroon
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Mon, Dec 04 2017, 8:46 am
| saw50st8 wrote: | There is no minhag to wear tights only. It's totally a made up thing. 100%. There is a machlokes on whether you need to cover the lower portion of your leg. Since yeshivish/charedi people say yes, they usually use tights to cover. Then leggings came to be "in style" and the yeshivish/charedi crowd loves to stop anything that might possibly be "modern" from infiltrating so they banned leggings. Keep in mind, some "footless tights" are as thick as "leggings."
We personally hold that pants are ok, so my daughter can wear them forever if she wants. She won't wear tights but just about always wears leggings under her skirts and dresses. |
Footless tights wouldn't be allowed either.
That one of the reasons they are not allowed, because they are footless.
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saw50st8
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Mon, Dec 04 2017, 9:20 am
| amother wrote: | Footless tights wouldn't be allowed either.
That one of the reasons they are not allowed, because they are footless. |
It's not a minhag. It's a "thing people do." There is no minhag to not wear footless tights or leggings. There is a minhag some people have to continuously cover all the way down over the ankle and feet. Tights do that. So do leggings and appropriate socks or footless tights and appropriate socks.
I know people who won't wear leggings but will wear footless tights because they are slightly thinner and not leggings. Because leggings are shtus g*yim wear. 
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Chayalle
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Mon, Dec 04 2017, 9:30 am
| pesek zman wrote: | | Shouldn't you also be asking what background the responders are? Like obviously Chassidish and yeshivish stop at 3, but others may stop later |
I haven't read the whole thread but why is that obvious? I'm yeshivish and my girls still wore pants (leggings) at 3. At 4, they still wore it at home or Sundays (because others weren't wearing it to playgroup) and at 5 we stopped.
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sequoia
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Mon, Dec 04 2017, 1:42 pm
When I had a roommate, she always wore leggings and socks at home and I honestly couldn’t tell. They were the same color. For a while I thought it was tights  Then she mentioned she finds tights uncomfortable and never wears them.
Also less laundry.
I love tights in cold weather, but I’d hate to wear them year-round.
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pesek zman
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Mon, Dec 04 2017, 1:44 pm
| Chayalle wrote: | | I haven't read the whole thread but why is that obvious? I'm yeshivish and my girls still wore pants (leggings) at 3. At 4, they still wore it at home or Sundays (because others weren't wearing it to playgroup) and at 5 we stopped. | m
I'm sorry. My yeshivish family stops at 3 which is why I made the assumption
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Alternative
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Mon, Dec 04 2017, 2:42 pm
| LovesHashem wrote: |
So based on this information, a girl who is wearing pants may not look refined, a skirt or a dress with tights looks MORE refined on a girl or woman than pants or leggings. Even on a 3 year old, it gives off a more refined look. Would you dress a 3 year old girl in leggings or pants for a wedding? No, exactly my point.
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I don't understand what wedding attire has to do with being refined during the week. Lots of people on this site would wear sequins to a wedding and I don't think that's refined at all, and in any case it's certainly not appropriate daily wear. Or women will wear heavy make up to a wedding, but is that 'refined' for everyday use?
I would dress my 3 year old in a flouncy sparkly dress for a wedding, but I don't think that's 'refined' wear for preschool.
I definitely don't think pants are inherently not refined. Many women manage to wear them and look very elegant.
I also don't think refined is everyone's end goal in being modest. Maybe dignified or respectable would be a better word. In today's world, wearing a pleated skirt with tights is no more dignified than wearing nice black slacks.
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dancingqueen
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Mon, Dec 04 2017, 2:54 pm
| amother wrote: | Honestly, I never thought of tznius that way. We learned in school about a mitzvah called tznius. And we are tznius for the sake of being tznius. We were never taught that tznius only applies if a man will be turned on. We learned rules of tznius and how we are supposed to be dressed. What way of dressing is considered tznius and what way of dressing is not considered tznius.
Some examples are, elbows need to be covered. No tight or fitted clothin. No big open neckline.
Skirt covering the knee. Tights that are not see through that you cannot see the color of the skin. And so on...We learned that these are tznius halachas. We also learned that if a man sees a women that's not dressed tzniusdig then he is not allowed to say a Bracha, Daven, or learn...we never learned that these rules apply only if a man gets s-xually distracted. Obviously every man is different. But there is a list of tznius guidelines that we follow. And it doesn't change based on how it makes a man feel.
Probably every community learns it differently. How did you learn it? |
When I grew up in my community girls didn’t fully take on tznius until bat mizvah and it was clear that tznius was connected to men/boys since you could still wear a bathing suit and change around other girls. But what other explanation can you come up with for a man to not be able to make a bracha around a 3 yo wearing pants?
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amother
Ecru
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Mon, Dec 04 2017, 3:05 pm
| dancingqueen wrote: | | When I grew up in my community girls didn’t fully take on tznius until bat mizvah and it was clear that tznius was connected to men/boys since you could still wear a bathing suit and change around other girls. But what other explanation can you come up with for a man to not be able to make a bracha around a 3 yo wearing pants? |
Because a man can't make a bracha around Ervah. Just is. Why is a 3 year old in pants ervah? there are sources...
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LovesHashem
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Mon, Dec 04 2017, 3:07 pm
| Alternative wrote: | I don't understand what wedding attire has to do with being refined during the week. Lots of people on this site would wear sequins to a wedding and I don't think that's refined at all, and in any case it's certainly not appropriate daily wear. Or women will wear heavy make up to a wedding, but is that 'refined' for everyday use?
I would dress my 3 year old in a flouncy sparkly dress for a wedding, but I don't think that's 'refined' wear for preschool.
I definitely don't think pants are inherently not refined. Many women manage to wear them and look very elegant.
I also don't think refined is everyone's end goal in being modest. Maybe dignified or respectable would be a better word. In today's world, wearing a pleated skirt with tights is no more dignified than wearing nice black slacks. |
I hear...you are right. I was trying to translate this concept, dignified is a better term than refined. This is my understanding of the essense of tzniyus, I was trying to connect it to the question.
In any case, I mean girls used to be married off at 3, so I suppose what we consider children weren't always simply children. Even 50 years ago there were girl being married at 11 and 12 in countries, and that happens now too.
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OOTforlife
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Mon, Dec 04 2017, 5:59 pm
| amother wrote: | | Because a man can't make a bracha around Ervah. Just is. Why is a 3 year old in pants ervah? there are sources... | I thought a woman couldn't make a bracha with her own ervah exposed, even when she is alone. And same for a man, he can't make a bracha naked even if nobody is around. I could be misremembering.
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amother
Maroon
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Mon, Dec 04 2017, 6:30 pm
| OOTforlife wrote: | | I thought a woman couldn't make a bracha with her own ervah exposed, even when she is alone. And same for a man, he can't make a bracha naked even if nobody is around. I could be misremembering. |
A women is allowed to make a Bracha when she is exposed. That's what we learned. We asked dyen if we are allowed to eat and make Bracha by the pool. He said yes. Men I don't know not a man so never asked. I would assume it's not a problem if they are exposed only if they see a women exposed.
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CDL
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Mon, Dec 04 2017, 6:53 pm
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Pants aren’t a problem of ervah. Short skirts are. Ervah is naked skin, not the shape or outline of a body part. So it pertains to brachos as follows: better to say a Bracha in front of a woman wearing pants, and not in front of a woman wearing a mini skirt.
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amother
Bisque
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Mon, Dec 04 2017, 6:55 pm
| OOTforlife wrote: | | I thought a woman couldn't make a bracha with her own ervah exposed, even when she is alone. And same for a man, he can't make a bracha naked even if nobody is around. I could be misremembering. | when you say ervah, what are you referring to? Arms, legs, your own hair, are not a problem. There should be a separation between the upper and lower parts of your body. So one piece bathing suit: might be a problem. Bikini: not a problem. When you make a Bracha in the mikvah: use your arms to separate upper and lower parts of your body.
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amother
Forestgreen
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Mon, Dec 04 2017, 9:16 pm
| OOTforlife wrote: | | I thought a woman couldn't make a bracha with her own ervah exposed, even when she is alone. And same for a man, he can't make a bracha naked even if nobody is around. I could be misremembering. |
She can. Only her private part needs to be out of sight. The rest can be exposed when she's saying a bracha.
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