Imamothes please identify ur 'sector'..

imasoftov

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 11:52 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

The statements I had issue were "I don't hold by your gedolei hador" and "There is no such thing as a universal gedolei hador anymore". When you say you don't hold by someone, do you mean that you don't consider them valid gedolim? Or that you don't follow their derech? Because I consider the Satmar Rebbe a valid godol, and I "hold" by him, I just don't follow his derech. So if this is not what you meant, can you explain yourself better?

I'm curious if your "holding by" a person (but not following his derech) means the same as considering him a gadol, or if there's a difference.

Is there such a thing as an invalid gadol?

etky

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 12:03 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

There are very real and important differences between Orthodox and Conservative Judaism that go beyond swordfish and cheese.*

Hidden:

The Conservative movement uses different criteria to determine halacha. So its not just that they come to a different conclusion -- or even that they come to the same conclusion. Its that they do so in a manner that Orthodoxy does not accept. Halacha is determined by a Central Committee, which may allow for different paths in different synagogues. Also, because Conservative Judaism does not believe that the Oral Torah was given on Sinai, they believe that it is more subject to change than do Orthodox Jews. Rabbi Schorsch, the former leader of the Conservative movement, said, that Conservative Judaism is tied to "sensing divinity both in the Torah and in the Oral Law," but not in a literalist manner.

Its insulting to both MO Jews and to Conservative Jews to conflate them.

I was not conflating them but I was curious if LovesHashem feels that the MO path is any more 'valid' , than the Conservative derech or whether they are equally invalid by her definition, despite the hashkafic differences. She granted that although she considers the MO derech invalid, MO people are 'religious' in her eyes since their lives are directed by Torah. I was wondering if she feels the same regarding observant Conservative Jews and also if she regards MO halacha as equally 'unorthodox' as Conservative halachic rulings.

moonstone

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 12:05 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

I don't think MO/Mizrachi/Dati Leumi rabbanim interpret the Torah and halacha as it should be done, so in my mind I disagree with those groups on many things, and don't think their path is valid.

But people in those groups are religious from an objective point of view. They follow the Torah to their interpretation, and fufill most halachos on a level I think is acceptable although again, many areas I do not think they do, and for that reason I do not consider these paths valid. If I thought they were the right path...well, I'd be on one of them. They are definitely more permissible paths than the one I live.

So religious, meaning they are living their life based on the Torah, and it defines most or all of their decisions, I would consider that to be a pretty good definition of someone religious.

Fair enough. You're entitled to your opinion. But so am I. And in my opinion, many "charedim" (using this as a catchall to include all ultra-Orthodox Jews) misinterpret the Torah and halacha and have taken on so many extra and completely unnecessary chumrot and "laws" that make life so much harder than it has to be. I think God must sometimes laugh at some of the ridiculous "laws" invented in the modern age by men who think looking frummer than the next guy is what religion is all about.

amother

Blue

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 12:11 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

There are very real and important differences between Orthodox and Conservative Judaism that go beyond swordfish and cheese.*

Hidden:

I'm fairly certain that, say tablet K cheese, which is generally not accepted does not have a hechsher from a conservative Rabbi (lets define as receiving ordination at a Conservative seminary) . Rather a 'renegade' orthodox Rabbi.

simcha2

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 12:13 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I am so confused with this sentence. I know people on every part of the frum spectrum, and I cannot say that any one group has a monopoly on "bein adam lachaveiro". Individual people (and families) differ in their level of observance of this mitzvah, I haven't noticed a difference specifically according to which group of Orthodoxy they identify with.

The only thing I can think of is that I have been attacked by women (and men, occasionally over the years) from other sectors of Orthodoxy (whether MO, chassidish, Lubavitch, etc) for my beliefs. I have been told that we, the Yeshivish community, are liars and stealers, we are not makpid on kashrus (that from the Chassidish community), we don't emphasize hashkafa (from the Lubavitch community) and who knows what else. None of these things are true to my knowledge. I haven't felt this huge outpouring of havas yisroel during those times, but it could be that I'm just sensitive...

You don't see the painful irony of your post? You tell other shomrei mitzvot women that their rabbanim aren't valid, that they are and not frum, and then say how dreadful it is that you have been attacked for your beliefs? You don't see the pain and division you are causing? Other sects have "gedolim", but when naming mo rabbanim you refuse to use the term. When someone says that there aren't gedolei hador in the same way today (because of these very divisions that you perpetuate with your disdain for modern orthodoxy), you have an issue that someone you consider a gadol, may not be followed by others. As I said, the irony is painful.

SixOfWands

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 12:28 pm

amother wrote:

I'm not sure what the origin of Tablet K is, but my Conservative friends accept it. In general, however, my understanding is that the Conservative movement does not require any hecksher for soft cheeses; not sure about hard cheeses.

Laiya

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 12:43 pm

imasoftov wrote:

I prefer shomeret mitzvot because dati is too linked in my mind with whatever the Mafdal calls itself this election (even if the individual under discussion votes for someone else). While any of the terms we've discussed could overlap in any given person, none of them necessarily do.

So how would you distinguish between frum and orthodox? Can you give an example of a practice or belief that would fall into one category but not the other?

Asking because I've only heard the terms used interchangeably; also synonymous with religious, with the meaning being, shomer(et) mitzvot

chanchy123

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 1:49 pm

moonstone wrote:

Haven't you ever heard of Orthoprax?

But as I've read here, there are Orthoprax Jews in all sects of Judaism, there is no reason to believe there are more Orthoprax Jews in Modern Orthodoxy than whatever other sect of Orthodoxy.
I'd say that as long as you're following the derech you're considered frum, even if you don't believe. No one can judge what you believe in the inside, so if you outwardly identify with a group in my books you're in.

chanchy123

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 1:55 pm

amother wrote:

Frum would be to cover ones hair- MO- not neccesarily...
Im bracing myself..but remember its just an opinion..

Not all MO Jews believe hair covering is necessary for married women.

Like in all other sects of Judaism, not everyone is able to follow every rule even if they think it's the right thing to do. So even if they know/think they should be covering their hair, some women are just not there. Like other women struggle in lashon hara, minutiae of hilchot Shabbat, or elsewhere, we're not all perfect even if we try. That doesn't negate all the amazing things they do and remove them from the fold of Orthodoxy.

Many many MO women do cover their hair. Many of them in a more preferable manner than many Charedim.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 2:14 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I mean I dont follow their derech and so for me they are not gedolei hador, they are gedolei charedi world. I dont think they are nothing, unlike other posters who did invalidate modern orthodox rabbanim. I am no invalidating anyone. I just dont hold of them and their derech. I have my own rabbanim who I consider great, thats all.

LovesHashem

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 2:40 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

1. The gedolim that you are talking about are ONLY in the charedi world. And Ill go one step further and say that the gedolei hador that you talk about is also ONLY in the charedi world. I dont hold by your gedolei hador. I BH have my own wonderful rabbanim that are 100% valid.
There is no such thing as a universal gedolei hador anymore.
What makes MO or dati leumi (im assuming this) rabbanim not valid? You still havent said.

2. But how are you friends with anyone MO if you are invalidating their entire life? (said scratching my head)

3. what please tell, is the difference?

1. Yes you are right. Many gedolim disagree with each other but still hold each other to be gedolim as Mommygr8 said, but chareidi gedolim don't hold your gedolim as gedolim.

2. I'm not sure, maybe ask them. BTW just because I don't agree with their path and see it valid doesn't mean I have invalidated their entire existense. Cmon, I still respect them for what they do, support them, have with them, and do everything REGULAR FRIENDS do!

3. A lifestyle is a culture, living a Torah life means submitting yourself to the Torah and to Hashem.

LovesHashem

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 2:41 pm

BadTichelDay wrote:

I don't want to derail this thread further but I'm just curious. What's the big difference between MO/Mizrachi/Dati Leumi interpretation of halacha and the chareidi interpretation?
I'm DL and I never thought we are that much different from other frum sectors.
(We dress more colorfully - but that can't be the real issue, can it?)

The main differences I can think of are that our rabbanim place a lot of emphasis on EY and most support army service.
A minority of our rabbanim encourages aliyot to Har Habayit, but that's a minority within DL, there are also many who oppose it.
Both of these seem to reflect differences in hashkafa rather than in halacha.

In actual day to day halacha, I'm not sure there are that many differences.
Chumrot are chumrot and by definition not halacha.

What is it that disqualifies our rabbanim in your view? What makes our path invalid? What do we not keep but should?

If you don't think the answer belongs here, I 'd also gladly receive a pm.

There is a halacha to follow gedolim, that is why I say socks are halacha and you don't.

LovesHashem

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 2:45 pm

mommy3b2c wrote:

Mommyg8 isn’t saying that you don’t consider them valid.

It sounds like you don’t consider them gedolim. And that’s wrong. They may not be the gadil that you personally follow, but they are still a gadol. To use mommyg8s example: I don’t follow the Samar rebbe, but I still consider him a gadol.

Yes but does the satmar gadol disagree with your gadol but think of him as a gadol? Or does he not think of your gadol as a gadol at all? That's the real question..

BadTichelDay

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 2:59 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

There is a halacha to follow gedolim, that is why I say socks are halacha and you don't.

Actually, the Mishnah Berurah (75:2) written by the Chofetz Chaim permits being without socks in places where the minhag is to be without them. Does that mean that the Chofetz Chaim was no gadol in your opinion?

How do you determine which gedolim to follow? What makes one Rav a gadol in your eyes and another one not?