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People with significant disability getting married
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petiteruchy




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 03 2017, 7:05 am
crust wrote:
I understand 'the' point of view. I am trying to understand his point of view as the father of the child in question.
Does he really see married mentally ill people -that are happy- around him?


Important point here: mentally ill is not the same as mentally or intellectually or cognitively disabled. Disabled is not the same as ill. Cognitive delays and mental disorders can go hand in hand or not, just as physical disability and illness can go hand in hand or not.

It's important to understand the difference between the two states.
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crust




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 03 2017, 7:15 am
petiteruchy wrote:
Important point here: mentally ill is not the same as mentally or intellectually or cognitively disabled. Disabled is not the same as ill. Cognitive delays and mental disorders can go hand in hand or not, just as physical disability and illness can go hand in hand or not.

It's important to understand the difference between the two states.


A. Not everyone falls into an exact catagory like DS. Very often its a mix of disability and illness.

B. To qoute the OP she asked opinions regarding; "people with significant disabilities that impact their life and make them dependent on others." Again, not very clear cut.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 03 2017, 7:18 am
lavenderchimes wrote:
Right -- in a world where everyone gets married and has babies, that IS the definition of happiness! Not being allowed to do the normal thing will make you unhappy. Not always, but most of the time.

It's an unpleasant thing to give someone bc without their knowledge, for sure But the unfortunate truth is that mentally disabled people may deemed fit to be married, but not fit to fully understand the numerous conmplexities of having a baby. If they really want a baby, they may understandably refuse to take the birth control. This presents other problems.

My grandmother cared for a Down's woman for years. She was a sweet woman with the mental capabilites of a child. She wanted terribly to get married and have a baby like everyone else! And perhaps she could have been happily married -- many are. But a baby was out of the question. And marriage and babies go together, right? Unfortunately, she could never have understood the distinction. She never would have taken bc, because she wanted a baby so badly. But besides that being unfair to a child, who is going to take charge of this situation? If the mother/father is unfit, who will care for the child?


Someone realized that their DS daughter simply wanted to be a bride and had no concept of having a husband so they dressed her up in a bridal gown and let her have a 'wedding' and she was happy with that. In other cases where there actually was a marriage, the DS couples had met through circumstances, fell in love, and were married, albeit with plenty of outside help and possibly the women underwent tubal ligation.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 03 2017, 7:20 am
crust wrote:
A. Not everyone falls into an exact catagory like DS. Very often its a mix of disability and illness.

B. To qoute the OP she asked opinions regarding; "people with significant disabilities that impact their life and make them dependent on others." Again, not very clear cut.


Crust, there several lovely frum boys here in Detroit who would love to get married but they suffered brain injuries at birth and these nice frum boys are mildly disabled. If you know any nice mildly disabled girls, I know of 3 boys here and one in another state who would possibly be interested.
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petiteruchy




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 03 2017, 7:31 am
crust wrote:
A. Not everyone falls into an exact catagory like DS. Very often its a mix of disability and illness.

B. To qoute the OP she asked opinions regarding; "people with significant disabilities that impact their life and make them dependent on others." Again, not very clear cut.


Fair enough, but then it's important to be precise... most people do not understand the difference and conflate the two without realizing.
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amother
Ruby


 

Post Sun, Dec 03 2017, 10:42 am
It's similar when you have cognitively normal couple with severe mental illness. Both could pass on their genes to their kids, except when it comes to ds, most men are infertile and women 1/2 are infertile, and it's a bigger chance that they will pass on their genes then someone who has mental illness because genetics are not as clear. Either way, if they have kids and can't take care of them, someone else is going to have to. It's not an easy situation. I know a nonobservant woman who was mentally ill and kept having kids with different men, and the state took them all away. It's sad. If they're cognitively not all aware, giving them birth control without them knowing is a problem, but if they have kids that they can't take care of that is also a problem. There doesn't seem to be a good solution.
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amother
Seafoam


 

Post Sun, Dec 03 2017, 11:02 am
amother wrote:
It's similar when you have cognitively normal couple with severe mental illness. Both could pass on their genes to their kids, except when it comes to ds, most men are infertile and women 1/2 are infertile, and it's a bigger chance that they will pass on their genes then someone who has mental illness because genetics are not as clear. Either way, if they have kids and can't take care of them, someone else is going to have to. It's not an easy situation. I know a nonobservant woman who was mentally ill and kept having kids with different men, and the state took them all away. It's sad. If they're cognitively not all aware, giving them birth control without them knowing is a problem, but if they have kids that they can't take care of that is also a problem. There doesn't seem to be a good solution.


Right so unpopular here - people with severe mental illness should maybe think twice before having kids.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 03 2017, 11:39 am
There have been parents of Down's syndrome women who were afraid that if a man in an adult care setting took advantage of their daughter, and pregnancy would result, they were afraid that the child could be affected or that the daughter would suffer unnecessarily for a child that would be probably taken away from her, so they got a court to allow sterilization.

There are various controversies about the fair way to handle severely mentally handicapped women in regards to menstruation and even to getting to adult height and being too hard to physically care for, if they could not walk on their own so estrogen can be given to stunt growth and possible the womb can be removed so as not to make the woman harder to care for. Some are against this but many others see that there is no purpose in forcing allowing these women to have to endure this.
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SuperWify




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 03 2017, 2:40 pm
southernbubby wrote:
There have been parents of Down's syndrome women who were afraid that if a man in an adult care setting took advantage of their daughter, and pregnancy would result, they were afraid that the child could be affected or that the daughter would suffer unnecessarily for a child that would be probably taken away from her, so they got a court to allow sterilization.

There are various controversies about the fair way to handle severely mentally handicapped women in regards to menstruation and even to getting to adult height and being too hard to physically care for, if they could not walk on their own so estrogen can be given to stunt growth and possible the womb can be removed so as not to make the woman harder to care for. Some are against this but many others see that there is no purpose in forcing allowing these women to have to endure this.

That’s horrible. I had volunteered for ds girls in my high school years. They got their periods and many were able to change their pads in their own.
While I don’t ththink bk ideally they should have kids, I do think forced sterilization and hormones are too far.
It’s a tough one to answer....
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crust




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 03 2017, 3:15 pm
petiteruchy wrote:
Fair enough, but then it's important to be precise... most people do not understand the difference and conflate the two without realizing.


Whom are you referring to? Me or the OP?

The OP was not precise about the type or the severity of the disability. Mental disability is a huge umbrella. Honestly I wanted to ask the OP what disability she is talking about because each situation really is so different. Then again I did not want to question her just like that.

My assumption was that if she as a mother feels her child is not marriageable material then, she is probably right. I asked her what her husband's opinion is because I wanted to understand why he thinks it is important.
I did not get to the point yet because OP didn't chime in again.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 03 2017, 3:18 pm
SuperWify wrote:
That’s horrible. I had volunteered for ds girls in my high school years. They got their periods and many were able to change their pads in their own.
While I don’t ththink bk ideally they should have kids, I do think forced sterilization and hormones are too far.
It’s a tough one to answer....


Girls who are completely unable to take care of their physical needs and cannot even be toilet trained are the ones who are sometimes prevented from menstruating. Girls with Down's syndrome usually are not that severely impaired.
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crust




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 03 2017, 3:26 pm
southernbubby wrote:
Crust, there several lovely frum boys here in Detroit who would love to get married but they suffered brain injuries at birth and these nice frum boys are mildly disabled. If you know any nice mildly disabled girls, I know of 3 boys here and one in another state who would possibly be interested.


Why would you think I know such girls? Smile
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crust




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 03 2017, 3:29 pm
southernbubby wrote:
Girls who are completely unable to take care of their physical needs and cannot even be toilet trained are the ones who are sometimes prevented from menstruating. Girls with Down's syndrome usually are not that severely impaired.


But then the medicines given to stop menstruation can potentially cause these girls to become unstable. It's a catch 22 and I am derailing this thread.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 03 2017, 3:36 pm
crust wrote:
But then the medicines given to stop menstruation can potentially cause these girls to become unstable. It's a catch 22 and I am derailing this thread.


They give estrogen in order to stop growth and I am not sure what they do to stop menstruation but these are children who are bedridden and their parents can only keep them at home if they can be stopped from becoming adults because then they become too large to care for at home. The menstruation also makes their care more difficult. I am not sure what type of instability occurs because these children probably have greatly shortened life spans simply from their conditions.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 03 2017, 3:43 pm
crust wrote:
Why would you think I know such girls? Smile



I don't know if you do, but if any of your friends or neighbors have some nice frum girls who are mildly disabled and could marry some mildly disabled very frum boys but if you know any or have any in mind, we could do some big mitzvahs! I ask everyone that lives in various communities if they have anyone for them. Maybe you work with such girls, did I guess right? Idea
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crust




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 03 2017, 3:50 pm
southernbubby wrote:
I don't know if you do, but if any of your friends or neighbors have some nice frum girls who are mildly disabled and could marry some mildly disabled very frum boys but if you know any or have any in mind, we could do some big mitzvahs! I ask everyone that lives in various communities if they have anyone for them. Maybe you work with such girls, did I guess right? Idea


I don't know what about your posts always make me smile. Maybe its your frankness? In any case, I like it! Thank you.
I do not work with these girls but I do have what to tell you about this big mitzvah though.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 03 2017, 3:57 pm
crust wrote:
I don't know what about your posts always make me smile. Maybe its your frankness? In any case, I like it! Thank you.
I do not work with these girls but I do have what to tell you about this big mitzvah though.


Thanks because I spent time on the phone this evening trying to put something together for one of these boys but it is a long shot. Nothing like this is ever easy.
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crust




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 03 2017, 4:08 pm
southernbubby wrote:
Thanks because I spent time on the phone this evening trying to put something together for one of these boys but it is a long shot. Nothing like this is ever easy.


I'll pm you.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 03 2017, 4:11 pm
crust wrote:
I'll pm you.


thanks!
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 03 2017, 7:24 pm
amother wrote:
Right so unpopular here - people with severe mental illness should maybe think twice before having kids.

In my experience, people with severe mental illness fall into two very basic categories:
1. Those who get pregnant because they have issues with impulsive unhealthy behaviors and/or disconnect from reality;
2. Those who think way more than twice before having kids.

Not to hijack, just to put your concerned mind at ease.
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