Was there collusion?

marina

Sun, Dec 03 2017, 7:36 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

All of us on this site are descendants of immigrants, in one way or another. Actually, that is the Jewish story - the Wandering Jew...

That does not make us ignorant, and that does not make illegal immigration suddenly "legal".

Being a descendant of immigrants is not what makes you ignorant. What makes you ignorant is thinking that legal immigration is actually feasible for most people and that those people just need to wait their turn like everybody else, as if we are all just waiting in line and some lazy inconsiderate illegal immigrants are just cutting the line because they are all jerks.

There are no legal ways to immigrate for many many people. That is just not an option. I don't think you know a lot about that.

Mommyg8

Sun, Dec 03 2017, 7:39 pm

marina wrote:

What makes you ignorant is thinking that legal immigration is actually feasible for most people and that those people just need to wait their turn like everybody else.

There are no legal ways to immigrate for many many people. That is just not an option.

I'm not sure why you thought we don't know that?

Look, the entire world wants to come to America (except for those who call us stupid Americans - um, maybe them too). You are right, I am extremely lucky to be living here, and I say this constantly.

But the facts are, that the legal system allows only a certain number of immigrants. Instead of complaining about people trying to enforce the law, wouldn't it be a better idea to actually try to CHANGE the law?

Obama was in power for eight years. Why was nothing done during all that time?

In this area I will admit that I am ignorant, because I truly don't understand.

marina

Sun, Dec 03 2017, 7:52 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Changing immigration laws to let more people in is not something many Americans favor- it is something they fear. That is one of the reasons Trump was elected- he capitalized on that fear.

If you knew about the hurdles of legal immigration, then please accept my apologies for calling you ignorant. Most people have no idea, for example, that you will need to wait 12-25 years to immigrate from Mexico, India, Phillippines, and that is IF you have a sibling who is a full US citizen. https://www.us-immigration.com.....-card

In other words, even if you have a brother or a sister here in America who is willing to sponsor you, you are still not coming over anytime soon.

Fox

Sun, Dec 03 2017, 8:00 pm

marina wrote:

As an immigrant, I find this rhetoric offensive. I am *our own* thanks.

And all of you who think you are so much better than illegals, you are just ignorant. You have no idea what illegal immigration means, how lucky you are, and how there but for the grace of god go each and every one of you. You did nothing to be born here and there's no reason you should pat yourself on the back for your amazing accomplishments. It's a complete accident of birth.

Let me get this straight:

No one has said a single negative word about immigrants in general -- only illegal immigrants and immigration policy. No one has said a single negative word personally about illegal immigrants -- most of us agree that the majority of illegal immigrants face desperate choices.

Yet you are offended?

Yes, you are "one of our own." And I seriously defy you to find any other country in the world in which immigrants are allowed to become one of the country's "own" with as little difficulty as the U.S. I'm not talking simply about citizenship or government benefits. I'm talking about the ability to integrate to the degree desired and truly be considered American despite having an accent; a different skin color; and coming from another country.

Britain? The class system is alive and well despite all efforts to kill it. You can't go to Britain, and through hard work and a little luck, become an aristocrat. Or Japan? Japan allows virtually no immigration, and "hafus" -- people of mixed Japanese and non-Japanese heritage -- are openly discriminated against. China? Russia? France? None of these places let in immigrants and cheerfully allow them to gain access to whatever jobs, neighborhoods, social status, or educational resources they can get through merit or tenacity.

I am not denying that discrimination occurs. Nor am I denying that, yes, there are people who hold prejudices regarding various countries, religions, backgrounds, etc.

But before you assume the worst about people born here, keep in mind that the majority of people in the U.S. will be nice to you; consider you for a job; and patronize your business regardless of your last name or country of origin; and treat you and your children as equals. That is not something that can necessarily be said about the rest of the world.

Jeanette

Sun, Dec 03 2017, 8:07 pm

Laiya wrote:

Communication does not mean collusion. It's expected for a president-elect to reach out and make contact with foreign governments, which is what the administration "admitted" to.

Actually it is against the law. We have only one president at a time who is authorized to make US foreign policy. That's why we have had peaceful transfer of power for 240 years. From November 7, 2016 to January 20, 2017, Barack Obama was president and it was illegal for anyone else to form a shadow government during that time.

In addition, there is ample evidence that the Trump campaign was meeting with Russian officials before the election attempting to coordinate the release of dirt on Hillary. We also know that Trump JR was in contact with Wikileaks and knew about the stolen emails before they were released.

We also know that Trump fired Comey to make the Russia investigation go away. I don't know what he was afraid of but I'm sure he knows.

In any event, as I said above, this case is not going to be decided by a public opinion poll or by Breitbart News. Mueller is a pro and I trust whatever conclusion he comes up with.

Mommyg8

Sun, Dec 03 2017, 8:12 pm

marina wrote:

I am not sure why I have to feel bad for people who want to come here, when I could first feel bad for the people that already do live here. As Squishy mentioned, illegal immigrants get many financial benefits that American citizens (who, for the most part, work very hard for their money) have to pay for.

Ignorance has many faces, and all of us - including Mommyg8 and including marina and including everyone here on this site - have areas of ignorance. So, I don't think it's so fair to call someone ignorant (which I personally was not, by the way, but that's a different conversation) when their ignorance just happens to be in a different area than yours.

Obama could have changed the laws many times, but he didn't. He chose to close the collective American eyes to the blatant disregard for the laws; but he did not put permanent changes in place. But even that mild change has created a huge backlash. As you say, people are scared. Until that will be addressed, I'm on the side of native born Americans.

Last edited by Mommyg8 on Sun, Dec 03 2017, 8:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

Laiya

Sun, Dec 03 2017, 8:12 pm

Jeanette wrote:

So you're alleging that Trump has violated the law, but even the FBI has not alleged that.

And again, no evidence of collusion, only rampant speculation. But I agree, it's silly to speculate. We'll have to see how things unfold.

marina

Sun, Dec 03 2017, 8:21 pm

Fox wrote:

Your entire post is like saying MY TOASTER MAY SHORT OUT SOMETIMES BUT IT TOASTS BREAD BETTER THAN ANY OTHER HOUSEHOLD APPLIANCE SO THERE! IT EVEN TOASTS BETTER THAN MY WASHER AND DRYER.

America is a land of immigrants, by immigrants, for immigrants. I have no idea why you’re comparing it to Japan or Russia or any other place.

Fox

Sun, Dec 03 2017, 8:22 pm

marina wrote:

Changing immigration laws to let more people in is not something many Americans favor- it is something they fear. That is one of the reasons Trump was elected- he capitalized on that fear.

Actually, that's a vast over-simplification. Trump's immigration proposals have consistently been anti-illegal immigration and have sought to emphasize merit- and economic-based immigration over family reunification.

And, in fact, Trump has walked back previous positions at various points, even at the cost of alienating hard-line supporters. Which was precisely why I voted for him; I want a President who will change his mind after getting more information about a problem.

Laiya

Sun, Dec 03 2017, 8:26 pm

Jeanette wrote:

Incidentaly, the foreign policy issue that Trump was reaching out regarding--and which views he had stated publicly in any event--was Israel.

On Dec. 22, Obama had abstained from voting against a UN resolution condemning Israel for settlement building.

Kushner wanted foreign governments to know that Trump opposed the resolution (and hopefully would oppose it at the UN)

marina

Sun, Dec 03 2017, 8:28 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

1. if I am ignorant on a certain topic, I expect to be called out on it and I often am.

2. Obama tried in many ways and failed. Public opinion was not with him for the most part and neither were the courts.

3. Obama deported more illegals than any other president.

4. by dividing people into native born and not native born, you are now placing legal immigrants into a second class status. Literally discriminating based on a sheer accident of birth. Carry on.

Fox

Sun, Dec 03 2017, 8:35 pm

marina wrote:

Because you made a sweeping statement based on no facts whatsoever that assumed that anyone who is concerned about immigration policy is ignorant and/or smug.

And then you followed up with the accusation that people "fear" immigration.

Well, I think it takes a heck of a lot of nerve to even think that.

Virtually every country was a group of immigrants at one time or another, and most at one time or another encouraged immigration. But simply allowing or encouraging immigration does not equal acceptance of immigrants. There are relatively few places in the world where that has been the case, and the U.S. is one of them.

Really, this is just more name-calling. Concerned about problems associated with illegal immigration? You're smug. Concerned about priorities in legal immigration? You're ignorant. Have the audacity to call legal immigrants "our own"? You're offensive.

Being willing to call legal immigrants "our own" should be a matter of pride for all Americans -- because it's not a common practice around the world. That you took offense simply at being included as "our own" is, well, pretty darned offensive.

Mommyg8

Sun, Dec 03 2017, 8:36 pm

marina wrote:

1. When you say someone is ignorant, that is a general statement. Please qualify in the future.

2 & 3) Obama tried to protect the illegals, or did he deport the illegals? Please explain. And if they were deported, why do Americans feel that there are too many illegals in this country, and why are they scared?

4) Using the term "native born" was a mistake. I amend that statement to include native born and legal immigrants, (or anyone else that pays taxes). Thank you for pointing that out.

Laiya

Sun, Dec 03 2017, 8:38 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

From what I understand, collusion is not against the law.

They are hoping to find evidence that Trump's foreign policy is or will be affected by his need to return "favors" to Russia, for Russia having harmed Hilary's chances during the campaign. That, as a candidate, he'd promised favors to Russia should he win, in return for Russia's hacking. A quid quo pro.

That would be a serious crime.

Seems improbable that that happened and yet, Mueller is allowing Flynn to plead to something so minor.

marina

Sun, Dec 03 2017, 8:47 pm

Fox wrote:

Ugh just stop. I didn’t invalidate all concerns about immigration.

What I did was cite the very specific words of one poster that I found offensive and smug. Then I apologized in advance if I misread her. If you’re not sure about this, please reread.

Squishy doesn’t need you to defend her, she’s fine on her own.

Jeanette

Sun, Dec 03 2017, 8:53 pm

Laiya wrote:

That is very nice but the fact remains that until January 20, 2017 Trump was not the president and had no business reaching out to foreign governemnts and making foreign policy. We have only one president at a time, for good reason. This is why United States has lasted for 240 years as a stable democracy with peaceful transition of power.

For the record I do not believe violations of the Logan act will be the makeh b'patish that brings down the Trump administration. This investigation is nowhere near done.