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Lakewood offensive sign?
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 10 2017, 5:42 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
To get back to the original story...

Reading over Shabbos, I remembered that the original of this statement came from Pharaoh - he too, was scared that the Jews would multiply too much and take over his land... Do you think that he had valid reasons as well? Are we now on Pharaoh's side?

After the famine ended, did Yosef go on feeding his family, or did they work for a living?
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 10 2017, 8:11 am
imasoftov wrote:
After the famine ended, did Yosef go on feeding his family, or did they work for a living?


I think that the Leviim did sit and learn while the rest tended the sheep in Goshen and the reason that they became enslaved was that at first Pharoah lured them out of Goshen and on to construction sites with promises of good pay but the Leviim did not buy into that and stayed in Kollel.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 10 2017, 9:16 am
imasoftov wrote:
After the famine ended, did Yosef go on feeding his family, or did they work for a living?


What makes you think that the people in Lakewood are NOT working for a living????
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cy




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 10 2017, 9:58 am
At this point there are probably alot more working fathers in lkwd then there are learning. And about the bugaboos, pple do buy them 2nd hand. Theres even someone that has a business in lkwd selling 2nd hand bugaboos. Look on ebay u can get it for much cheaper.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 10 2017, 10:17 am
RebekahsMom wrote:
They would definitely jump, probably by $1000 or more. But on the flip side, you would save thousands without paying tuition. And public schools are well-equipped to handle special needs children. I’m raising 2, I speak from experience. The SCHI fee of over $95,000 per student would drop by half of their kids, likely more, if these kids were receiving aid in a public school. That’s a huge tax savings right there.

Public schools handle kids in classrooms (pull out for therapy), have extra teachers in mixed classrooms (combining special education and other kids), have self contained classrooms (all spec ed), and even classes for the most severe of children (CI/ cognitively impaired). Yes, spec ed teachers are pricey, but their fee is included in the $15000/ child price tag.

When I type this, please note that I haven’t always believed in the public school system. But I want my kids to get the best combo of education and help they can get, and it is lacking in private schools.


Are you kidding??? Jump by $1000 or more? Do you know what kind of money would be needed to transfer all these kids into public school? Our already hugely inflated property taxes would more than double, there's no other way for this to happen!

And what percentage of Lakewood kids are in SCHI? (Unfortunately, even one is too much, but it's definitely a small percentage).

Do you REALLY think that special ed teachers and therapists are included in the $15,000 price tag?

I am being accused, over and over again on this thread, for putting my head in the sand. But I think that this kind of make-believe math is the equivalent of not only putting my head in the sand, but covering it up with countless layers as well.
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LittleDucky




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 10 2017, 11:43 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
Are you kidding??? Jump by $1000 or more? Do you know what kind of money would be needed to transfer all these kids into public school? Our already hugely inflated property taxes would more than double, there's no other way for this to happen!

And what percentage of Lakewood kids are in SCHI? (Unfortunately, even one is too much, but it's definitely a small percentage).

Do you REALLY think that special ed teachers and therapists are included in the $15,000 price tag?

I am being accused, over and over again on this thread, for putting my head in the sand. But I think that this kind of make-believe math is the equivalent of not only putting my head in the sand, but covering it up with countless layers as well.


Actually public schools could save a ton of money for the average yeshiva family. It shouldn’t be that big an increase (especially when you take into account it is a flat rate per family instead of a per child tuition cost).

Bussing costs would be less since not only would everyone on the block go to one or two schools (elementary or middle school) but there wouldn’t be as many stops!! So costs less and less congestion on the roads.
Plus there would be a savings factor when you can buy in bulk and get savings from distributors and contractors so cheaper per student. Think repairmen- schools have to pay for one but they aren’t all working full time. Having a contract can be cheaper then paying per job etc plus multiply by the total number of schools we have!
I am not saying that public schools don’t have waste but they do have an automatic advantage with their buying power.

Oh and NJ has a weird funding rule that makes Lakewood on the losing end. At least that’s what the frum men on the school board have claimed. Meaning they collect from every city but only give back based on the number of students enrolled. So sending to public schools should increase state funding to Lakewood.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 10 2017, 11:50 am
LittleDucky wrote:
Actually public schools could save a ton of money for the average yeshiva family. It shouldn’t be that big an increase (especially when you take into account it is a flat rate per family instead of a per child tuition cost).

Bussing costs would be less since not only would everyone on the block go to one or two schools (elementary or middle school) but there wouldn’t be as many stops!! So costs less and less congestion on the roads.
Plus there would be a savings factor when you can buy in bulk and get savings from distributors and contractors so cheaper per student. Think repairmen- schools have to pay for one but they aren’t all working full time. Having a contract can be cheaper then paying per job etc plus multiply by the total number of schools we have!
I am not saying that public schools don’t have waste but they do have an automatic advantage with their buying power.

Oh and NJ has a weird funding rule that makes Lakewood on the losing end. At least that’s what the frum men on the school board have claimed. Meaning they collect from every city but only give back based on the number of students enrolled. So sending to public schools should increase state funding to Lakewood.


And if yeshivas operated like public schools, getting together to contract with repairmen and other services and making one central administration to cut down on costly administrators, they could also save money and places like Kiryat Yoel apparently do have all of the schools under one umbrella administration but it doesn't appear that Lakewood works like that and each school is it's own entity, just like here in Detroit.
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shoshanim999




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 10 2017, 11:57 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
What makes you think that the people in Lakewood are NOT working for a living????


A quick Google search says that the median household income in Lakewood is 42,000. That puts Lakewood in the bottom 5% against other towns in NJ. Also, 31% earn below the poverty line. Do you really think Lakewood is the same as everywhere else? It's simply not true.
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LittleDucky




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 10 2017, 11:59 am
southernbubby wrote:
And if yeshivas operated like public schools, getting together to contract with repairmen and other services and making one central administration to cut down on costly administrators, they could also save money and places like Kiryat Yoel apparently do have all of the schools under one umbrella administration but it doesn't appear that Lakewood works like that and each school is it's own entity, just like here in Detroit.


Oh definitely. But they won’t. Schools like to be independent and if there was a central administration why would each school have to have so many bloated admin salaries?

But then again it still wouldn’t account for the extra money coming from the state coffers.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 10 2017, 12:02 pm
LittleDucky wrote:
Actually public schools could save a ton of money for the average yeshiva family. It shouldn’t be that big an increase (especially when you take into account it is a flat rate per family instead of a per child tuition cost).

Bussing costs would be less since not only would everyone on the block go to one or two schools (elementary or middle school) but there wouldn’t be as many stops!! So costs less and less congestion on the roads.
Plus there would be a savings factor when you can buy in bulk and get savings from distributors and contractors so cheaper per student. Think repairmen- schools have to pay for one but they aren’t all working full time. Having a contract can be cheaper then paying per job etc plus multiply by the total number of schools we have!
I am not saying that public schools don’t have waste but they do have an automatic advantage with their buying power.

Oh and NJ has a weird funding rule that makes Lakewood on the losing end. At least that’s what the frum men on the school board have claimed. Meaning they collect from every city but only give back based on the number of students enrolled. So sending to public schools should increase state funding to Lakewood.


What? What???!!!
It costs 15,000 per child in the public school system, our yeshivos full tuition is probably half. How do you see doubling tuition as being a cost saving?
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 10 2017, 12:06 pm
shoshanim999 wrote:
A quick Google search says that the median household income in Lakewood is 42,000. That puts Lakewood in the bottom 5% against other towns in NJ. Also, 31% earn below the poverty line. Do you really think Lakewood is the same as everywhere else? It's simply not true.

If the median income is $42,000 - uh, that's income, right? Which means someone's working....
But don't forget - Lakewood is not just jewish. There is a significant senior citizen population living in Lakewood... might have skewed the numbers a bit? And there are others, not sure if they were counted, but if so, they are generally on the lower end of the economic scale. And considering that the average Lakewood head of household is around 25 - not too bad!
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shoshanim999




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 10 2017, 12:19 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
If the median income is $42,000 - uh, that's income, right? Which means someone's working....
But don't forget - Lakewood is not just jewish. There is a significant senior citizen population living in Lakewood... might have skewed the numbers a bit? And there are others, not sure if they were counted, but if so, they are generally on the lower end of the economic scale. And considering that the average Lakewood head of household is around 25 - not too bad!


Sure people work in Lakewood. I think the reason why some are resentful is because at the end of the day, more families in Lakewood need public assistance than almost any other town. Making matters worse, this is done deliberately in that they have large families with incomes that could not possibly support it's needs without help. I can understand why an outsider would resent that. You're just saying "but they work". The gentile in the next town is saying "why does a family with under 50k in income have 8 kids"? As a frum jew I am supportive of large families who truly value a torah lifestyle and choose to have large families with minimal income. That being said I also understand the resentment of others.
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LittleDucky




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 10 2017, 12:24 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
What? What???!!!
It costs 15,000 per child in the public school system, our yeshivos full tuition is probably half. How do you see doubling tuition as being a cost saving?


But that 15,000 isn’t coming directly from your pocket. Tuition is. You have to pay taxes no matter what and no matter the cost. You have no control over it. Only two things in life are guaranteed- taxes and death. So in effect you are paying for 2 educations every year.

Why do you say taxes would double? Most of your public school tax dollars are going to the state and redistributed to areas with more students.
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Simple1




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 10 2017, 12:26 pm
shoshanim999 wrote:
A quick Google search says that the median household income in Lakewood is 42,000. That puts Lakewood in the bottom 5% against other towns in NJ. Also, 31% earn below the poverty line. Do you really think Lakewood is the same as everywhere else? It's simply not true.


If you're comparing to other NJ towns, don't forget that NJ is among the top earning states.
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shoshanim999




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 10 2017, 12:35 pm
Simple1 wrote:
If you're comparing to other NJ towns, don't forget that NJ is among the top earning states.


Fine, but that doesn't refute the larger point which is that outsiders are resentful that families that can't sustain themselves without assistance, continue to grow. At the end of the day assistance programs were put in place sometime after the great depression to help people in families in need. Not families who deliberately put themselves in need. I think they look at Lakewood families in the same way that we would look at a family that earns 250k a year, goes on exotic vacations including a 30k pesach program, makes over the top simchas, and then asks for a big tuition break. The yeshiva would likely respond that tuition assistance is for families doing their best but still can't afford full tuition, not families that put themselves in a position where they can't pay. Same with Lakewood families. Yes, many qualify for help. But that's because they put themselves in need of help.

I'll repeat again that I as a frum woman have nothing but love and admiration for families that are making the sacrifice. However, I understand why a non jew doesn't feel so warm and fuzzy about it.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 10 2017, 12:46 pm
Again and again, I am seeing the claim on imamother that our non Jewish neighbors are upset that we get welfare. I have not yet seen ONE linked article or any kind of proof whatsoever to back up this claim. An my experience is that this is not the reality.

Also, to claim that the current assistance guidelines were put in place after the Depression is being completely out of touch with the history of these programs.
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shoshanim999




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 10 2017, 1:00 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
Again and again, I am seeing the claim on imamother that our non Jewish neighbors are upset that we get welfare. I have not yet seen ONE linked article or any kind of proof whatsoever to back up this claim. An my experience is that this is not the reality.

Also, to claim that the current assistance guidelines were put in place after the Depression is being completely out of touch with the history of these programs.



Maybe I'm not understanding your point. Are you saying that Lakewood families aren't on any form of public assistance programs such as food stamps and heavily subsidized healthcare, more than any other town, or are you saying that they are on a significant amount of programs, but not specifically welfare?
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octopus




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 10 2017, 4:17 pm
And do you think the gentile Lakewood residents would resent the Jews less if they were not on gov't programs? They will find a different reason to resent them. I'm not saying this is an excuse for chillul Hashem and stealing (disclaimer: I know that a lot of ppl are not stealing). But that should not be the yardstick of of morality- what the neighbors will think of you. The whole idea is a false premise.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 10 2017, 4:30 pm
shoshanim999 wrote:
Maybe I'm not understanding your point. Are you saying that Lakewood families aren't on any form of public assistance programs such as food stamps and heavily subsidized healthcare, more than any other town, or are you saying that they are on a significant amount of programs, but not specifically welfare?


I am saying that the post Depression policies are no longer in place; we now have policies that actively encourage families with children to avail themselves of any social services available. I also don't think that Jersey Care is considered a low income program by ANYONE (except Shyshira).

Like I said in an earlier thread, the current government policies are there to help single mothers - all of whom are single mothers by choice - and the fact that we benefit by these policies is nice, but we are hardly using up all the US resources ourselves.

I don't know if we do or don't have more children on JerseyCare than any other town, I have not seen those statistics. As for other programs such as Food Stamps, which has a much lower income threshold - I don't know how many people in Lakewood qualify for full benefits, again, I have not seen the data either way.

Again, I explained the term "welfare" upthread. Multiple times.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 10 2017, 4:31 pm
octopus wrote:
And do you think the gentile Lakewood residents would resent the Jews less if they were not on gov't programs? They will find a different reason to resent them. I'm not saying this is an excuse for chillul Hashem and stealing (disclaimer: I know that a lot of ppl are not stealing). But that should not be the yardstick of of morality- what the neighbors will think of you. The whole idea is a false premise.


Thumbs Up

Remember, this thread started because of some nut with a sign.

Some posters have extrapolated that the motivation for the nut with the sign is the alleged reliance on government transfer payments by people in Lakewood (and presumably Monsey). There is no evidence that the nut with the sign was motivated by this sentiment, and none of the posters have offered a single iota of such evidence.

In fact, it's far more likely that the nut with the sign was motivated by the general increase in the Jewish populations of Lakewood and Monsey. There is plenty of evidence that people resent it when their communities change in any way -- even ways that offer them benefits.

Projecting one's own prejudices onto some nut with a sign doesn't make the strongest case, frankly.

Fortunately, it's very easy to determine whether your post on this thread goes over the line: simply subsitute whatever nouns you've used with "African-American" or "Hispanic" or "Muslim" or whatever. If you would be embarrassed to have your post published in your community newspaper or similar outlet with the substitution in place, then you're not just weighing in on legitimate problems; you're a bigot.
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