Lakewood offensive sign?

DVOM

Fri, Dec 08 2017, 11:44 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

I just came back to this thread, and I didn't read all the way down. If I'm saying something that was already said I apologize.

I'm going to try to say this in a nice way... no, I'm not.

I don't think you have any idea how the world works today. In which universe does graduating with a degree in humanities or liberal arts or theater or whatever get you ANY kind of job? The vast majority of degrees are in completely useless fields. But the government gives government loans, etc. anyways. Or parents pay for it.

And yes, the system works. Very well, obviously, or there wouldn't be so much jealousy.

I read through all these posts last night, and found myself feeling so distressed and disturbed that I didn’t post a response. I figured a good night sleep would give me more perspective, but this morning I'm just as upset, so here goes nothing:

This post started as a conversation about the animosity between the orthodox Jewish community and other residents of Lakewood and the surrounding towns. I think some of these posts illustrate why the relationship between us is so strained.

I’m not going to touch the content of the posts, it’s the tone that got to me. Ignorance (I’m not on welfare if I don’t feel like I am) and arrogance (if you disagree with me, it must be because you’re jealous of me) prevent any sort of productive dialoged between two parties. How can we expect to develop respectful, courteous relationships with our neighbors if we approach them with this attitude?

Mommyg8

Fri, Dec 08 2017, 11:58 am

DVOM wrote:

If you can believe it, in even more upset then you. I clarified upthread the misconception about welfare. Please read it again. I'm sorry, but the ignorance and prejudice on this site alone.... I have very cordial relations with others... not a problem. It seems it's the jews who are the angry ones... what can we expect from outsiders if this is how we talk to each other???

InnerMe

Fri, Dec 08 2017, 2:05 pm

DVOM wrote:

I don't live in Lakewood, and this thread is very distressing to me as well. From both sides.

I always loved your posts DVOM (and still do!), but I can see how they add fuel to the fire.
Mommygr8 feels attacked, and gets defensive for valid reason. At the same time I hear your frustration, and why this triggers you so much. I don't claim to have the solution. But please, work together. You need each other. So by all means continue to clarify,and but our biggest strength lies in unity. So you are both on the same team. Both trying to live according to the Torah ideals, but yet having to face the reality of galus, and working with that.

I always feel heart broken when I see these threads. I was no longer following it after the 3rd or 4th page. The insults thrown both ways are so sad. Yes, I understand these talks bring up triggers for both sides of saga. Strong feelings. But keep your end goal in mind. And if I may offer some mussar- Don't create more strife with this, and play it with kindness.

I'm sorry if I'm out of line for saying this. I just feel too strongly when seeing the insults traded on such threads.

DVOM

Fri, Dec 08 2017, 2:33 pm

InnerMe wrote:

Your right. I need to think more about this conversation and why it made me feel so disgusted, exasperated, exhausted. I'm sure if I would have responded with a more open and accepting attitude myself I would have gotten further in actually building some points of connection and agreement. I know I let my tone become sarcastic. My opinions haven't changed, but I'm not proud of the way I expressed them. I'm sorry.

InnerMe

Fri, Dec 08 2017, 2:42 pm

DVOM wrote:

Wow DVOM, all I can say is that I am genuinely humbled by your response.

InnerMe

Fri, Dec 08 2017, 3:17 pm

Also, DVOM, I just want to add that I quoted your post, not because your posts were the rudest ones of this thread. On the contrary, there were other posters who took it a lot further, but I wouldn't say anything because it doesn't seem to me that they'd care.

But you struck me as different, because from other threads I've gathered that you are a sensitive, intuitive and well rounded person. And I thought you may be open to hearing this. Thank you for confirming that. And once again, I am truly humbled by your response.
Keep being your beautiful caring self.

DVOM

Fri, Dec 08 2017, 3:22 pm

InnerMe wrote:

thanks innerme! that's very kind

dancingqueen

Fri, Dec 08 2017, 3:48 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

You can't afford a bugaboo if you are eligible for wic, at least I couldn't, unless it's a gift or you're dipping into savings. So her gripe would have validity, IF TRUE.

What’s so hard to understand? We have concurrent threads about this going on right now. Parents are giving thousands a month in support plus the wife works a low wage job so they get govt benefits plus plenty extra for luxury goods and lifestyle.

ETA: you said before you always looked down on those getting welfare. And Orthodox Jews aren’t the only ones who live luxurious lifestyles despite being on welfare. But we’ve always been held to a higher standard. We are supposed to be or lagoyim.

RebekahsMom

Fri, Dec 08 2017, 4:00 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

It's half federal and half local property taxes. Trust me, if all the kids would go to public school out taxes would go through the roof.

They would definitely jump, probably by $1000 or more. But on the flip side, you would save thousands without paying tuition. And public schools are well-equipped to handle special needs children. I’m raising 2, I speak from experience. The SCHI fee of over $95,000 per student would drop by half of their kids, likely more, if these kids were receiving aid in a public school. That’s a huge tax savings right there.

Public schools handle kids in classrooms (pull out for therapy), have extra teachers in mixed classrooms (combining special education and other kids), have self contained classrooms (all spec ed), and even classes for the most severe of children (CI/ cognitively impaired). Yes, spec ed teachers are pricey, but their fee is included in the $15000/ child price tag.

When I type this, please note that I haven’t always believed in the public school system. But I want my kids to get the best combo of education and help they can get, and it is lacking in private schools.

Mommyg8

Sat, Dec 09 2017, 7:31 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

As I said, when I was growing up the definition of welfare meant a monthly check from the government. It is now called TANF. From what I understand, I would think there is almost nobody from the Lakewood Jewish community on TANF, that's what I meant to say. SouthernBubby clarified this as well - welfare used to be meant as a monthly check. The definition might have changed in the past 40 years, so this is vocabulary generational issue. Again, I clarified this upthread, but I know that no-one is reading through all the pages, so I'm clarifying it again.

If you have an income that is eligible to receive WIC, then it would be very hard to buy a bugaboo or whatever brand the carriages are today. The reason that most women DO have them if they are receiving government programs is either a. it was a gift from parents or b. the family scraped the money together because they saw it as an investment, the same way you scrape the money together to buy an (older) car, because you need something to drive around in. A good carriage can be seen as an investment by someone who iy'h plans to have a large family.

I don't think it's a chillul Hashem at all to have a upscale carriage and receiving government aid, I just think it shows that these women have made smart choices with their money. So I was wondering why this would bother some other posters.

shyshira

Sat, Dec 09 2017, 7:44 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I don't think it's a chillul Hashem at all to have a upscale carriage and receiving government aid, I just think it shows that these women have made smart choices with their money. So I was wondering why this would bother some other posters.

Or it looks like people are working around the system. Its problematic to many people that a young family who can (to borrow an example from another thread) eat out 3 meals a week, takes money from the government to feed their infant.

What smart choice is it to receive gifts? How is that a choice? I'll give you the carriage as an investment - but not the fancy clothes on the child in it.

its not fraud - but it doesn't sit well.

Last edited by shyshira on Sat, Dec 09 2017, 7:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

Notsobusy

Sat, Dec 09 2017, 7:45 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I'm not sure if you are very naive, or you are pretending not to understand. Unfortunately there are people in Lakewood who live an upgraded lifestyle while collecting funds from the government. I don't care if you call it welfare or you want to refer to each program separately. And it's not just the carriages, it's their whole lifestyle. Besides, let's be honest here, if you are really poor it doesn't matter what a great investment you believe a bugaboo is, you don't buy it because you can't afford it.

Some of their lifestyle may be gifts from parents, but something is wrong with people who let their kids basics needs be sponsored by the government while they sponsor all types of luxuries. If you have that much money, pay for your children's basic needs all by yourselves.

DVOM

Sat, Dec 09 2017, 8:30 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

To get back to the original story...

Reading over Shabbos, I remembered that the original of this statement came from Pharaoh - he too, was scared that the Jews would multiply too much and take over his land... Do you think that he had valid reasons as well? Are we now on Pharaoh's side?

Hi Mommyg8!

I'm going to try (I think for the last time, because this conversation is something of a trigger for me!) to get my point across. Here it goes:

The non-Jews in our town and in the neighboring towns see us buying up their real estate and moving into their neighborhoods and it bothers them. They have complaints that I see as valid. They worry about their quality of life- quiet, clean streets, minimal traffic, good schools for their kids, and neighbors who are welcoming and potential friends for themselves and their children- and rightly or wrongly see us as a threat to all that. If we can listen to their concerns with compassion and respect, we can probably create good connections and live harmoniously with each other. I don't think the man with the sign was doing something classy, or kind, or productive, but I think he was expressing a frustration that a lot of our non-Jewish neighbors feel.

Comparing our non-Jewish neighbors to Pharoah disturbs me so much. It villainizes them and makes it easy to trivialize and dismiss their concerns. They are people, real people, not the reincarnation of historical 'bad guys'. This sort of rhetoric makes it so hard to have a productive, respectful relationship with our neighbors.

Mommyg8

Sat, Dec 09 2017, 9:56 pm

DVOM wrote:

I never compared our non-Jewish neighbors to Pharoah. I was comparing the guy with the sign, which says, "Stop Multiplying", to Pharoah. And, unfortunately, I read some posters express annoyance on the relatively large size of the typical Lakewood family. I would suggest those posters think about which side of the fence they are on before they express these sentiments...

I am pretty sure that not all of the non-Jews in neighboring towns are upset that Jews are moving in, just a vocal few. And if they DO agree with the sentiments expressed by the guy with the sign, (and they feel we should stop multiplying), then, yes, I will compare them to Pharoah. After all, Pharoah had valid concerns as well, didn't he?

But the vast majority are normal, nice people with concerns... and like I said, I understand if people don't want their neighborhood to change... that is a valid concern, and I understand that. Just don't link their negative sentiments to the fact that Jewish children are on Jersey Care, because I just don't think that is true.

And please don't bad mouth young Kollel couples (I am not talking specifically to you DVOM, I am addressing everyone on this forum). If you don't agree with the kollel lifestyle, that is your prerogative, but I think the venom on this topic is just a tad over the top. Sorry.