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Gender identity confusion is not hardwired into the brain
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 2:59 pm
marina wrote:
If you're old enough to die for your country, you're old enough to make other decisions about your body as well.


But what harm would there be in getting therapy and counseling until age 21 and putting off the decision to operate? As long as the person isn't considering suicide, why rush? Serving one's country doesn't mean that they will necessarily die while serving. They are at risk of death but most come home.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 3:03 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
Interesting.

There's a thread about a teen with a lot of facial hair, who wants to have it removed via electrolysis or laser, but the family can't afford it. People have insisted that this is important. They family must find the money lest the young woman feel bad about herself. They've gone so far as to suggest that the person who performs these procedures should do so for free, or at a reduced cost, given its importance.

No one suggested conversion therapy to make this young woman accept her body as it is.

Because removal of hair is accepted, but gender dysphoria is not.


again why is a non-invasive procedure being equated with medically and surgically changing one's gender?

Electrolysis is expensive but so is therapy. And what about the growing number of transgenders who eventually return to their former genders? Just because they are the media darlings of conservative media, does that negate their experiences?
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 3:10 pm
http://www.newsweek.com/transg.....76777

OK, so is Newsweek a conservative news site? This claims that there is an increased incidence of transitioning surgeries but also some want to transition back to being male. So is it so advantageous to do this procedure? Should 18 year old kids be in a hurry to change their bodies when it is not an emergency?
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 3:14 pm
I think gender reassignment surgery is the last stop- people generally consider it only if the other option is suicide. Most people do not have this surgery done ever.
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amother
Purple


 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 3:18 pm
southernbubby wrote:
http://www.newsweek.com/transgender-women-transgender-men-relations-change-relations-reassignment-surgery-676777

OK, so is Newsweek a conservative news site? This claims that there is an increased incidence of transitioning surgeries but also some want to transition back to being male. So is it so advantageous to do this procedure? Should 18 year old kids be in a hurry to change their bodies when it is not an emergency?


What the article said was one Serbian doctor saw this trend - and no information in if he treated adolescents.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 3:20 pm
marina wrote:
I think gender reassignment surgery is the last stop- people generally consider it only if the other option is suicide. Most people do not have this surgery done ever.


It doesn't always prevent suicide either but at least after age 21, more of an adulthood understanding of the world is reached.

I would think that it is better to simply live as the gender that they want to live as but not have the surgery. That way their options would remain open.
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amother
Purple


 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 3:23 pm
southernbubby wrote:
It doesn't always prevent suicide either but at least after age 21, more of an adulthood understanding of the world is reached.

I would think that it is better to simply live as the gender that they want to live as but not have the surgery. That way their options would remain open.


Is it really simple to live like that?
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 3:23 pm
amother wrote:
What the article said was one Serbian doctor saw this trend - and no information in if he treated adolescents.


http://www.sexchangeregret.com/

Here is a site that was started by someone who regretted his gender transition and went back and he has reached out to people who went through the same thing that he did. In Europe, the surgery is postponed until age 21 so it is not done on adolescents.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 3:25 pm
amother wrote:
Is it really simple to live like that?


NO it is not simple but even when they have surgery and chemical castration their lives are far from simple. They are not simply the gender that they want to be. They don't have universal acceptance and not all of them turn out to be attractive as the opposite gender. They still may have depression and the hormones are not always easy to live with.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 3:26 pm
amother wrote:
Is it really simple to live like that?


And Miss Purple Amother, I may be argumentative and clueless but I don't bite. You don't have to remain in the closet.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 3:32 pm
southernbubby wrote:
again why is a non-invasive procedure being equated with medically and surgically changing one's gender?

Electrolysis is expensive but so is therapy. And what about the growing number of transgenders who eventually return to their former genders? Just because they are the media darlings of conservative media, does that negate their experiences?


I'm not equating them. But if therapy is effective to convince people to accept their bodies, why not recommend it for teens who are a bit hairy. I doubt their rate of attempted suicide comes close to that of transgender youth.

In any case, with respect to the claims of regret, a 2016 Washington Post article states, "These statistics and misstatements are based on outdated research. More recent studies suggest that less than 4 percent of people who get gender-reassignment surgery regret it. Researchers have also found that the surgery dramatically reduces suicide rates among trans people. That makes sense — the surgery can improve self-esteem, body image and general life satisfaction. This is why the international standard of care for adolescents and adults in many countries is to offer transition services."

A 2009 Swedish study found that 95 percent of individuals who transitioned report positive life outcomes as a result.

Again, as Marina points out, surgery is usually a last resort, and a number of transgender people never have surgery.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 3:36 pm
As I understand it, hormone treatments generally render an individual sterile with the probability rising the longer one receives hormone therapy. So it's not just surgeries that represent a permanent decision.

We should also note that there are a number of different surgeries that transgender individuals may elect to have. MtF individuals usually opt for facial feminization surgery first, and FtM individuals tend to opt for mastectomies before anything else. These surgeries are actually less of a permanent commitment than hormone therapy since they don't impact the person's ability to have children.
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tryinghard




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 3:40 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
I'm not equating them. But if therapy is effective to convince people to accept their bodies, why not recommend it for teens who are a bit hairy. I doubt their rate of attempted suicide comes close to that of transgender youth.

In any case, with respect to the claims of regret, a 2016 Washington Post article states, "These statistics and misstatements are based on outdated research. More recent studies suggest that less than 4 percent of people who get gender-reassignment surgery regret it. Researchers have also found that the surgery dramatically reduces suicide rates among trans people. That makes sense — the surgery can improve self-esteem, body image and general life satisfaction. This is why the international standard of care for adolescents and adults in many countries is to offer transition services."

A 2009 Swedish study found that 95 percent of individuals who transitioned report positive life outcomes as a result.

Again, as Marina points out, surgery is usually a last resort, and a number of transgender people never have surgery.


Less than 4% ?!?! That is a huge percentage given the permanent nature and ramifications of the surgery.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 3:44 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
I'm not equating them. But if therapy is effective to convince people to accept their bodies, why not recommend it for teens who are a bit hairy. I doubt their rate of attempted suicide comes close to that of transgender youth.

In any case, with respect to the claims of regret, a 2016 Washington Post article states, "These statistics and misstatements are based on outdated research. More recent studies suggest that less than 4 percent of people who get gender-reassignment surgery regret it. Researchers have also found that the surgery dramatically reduces suicide rates among trans people. That makes sense — the surgery can improve self-esteem, body image and general life satisfaction. This is why the international standard of care for adolescents and adults in many countries is to offer transition services."

A 2009 Swedish study found that 95 percent of individuals who transitioned report positive life outcomes as a result.

Again, as Marina points out, surgery is usually a last resort, and a number of transgender people never have surgery.


Then there is this Swedish study:

Conclusions
Persons with transsexualism, after relations reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that relations reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after relations reassignment for this patient group


Results
The overall mortality for relations-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth relations, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). relations-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned relations yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth relations controls.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p.....3071/
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 3:45 pm
Fox wrote:
As I understand it, hormone treatments generally render an individual sterile with the probability rising the longer one receives hormone therapy. So it's not just surgeries that represent a permanent decision.

We should also note that there are a number of different surgeries that transgender individuals may elect to have. MtF individuals usually opt for facial feminization surgery first, and FtM individuals tend to opt for mastectomies before anything else. These surgeries are actually less of a permanent commitment than hormone therapy since they don't impact the person's ability to have children.


What about the other health factors like increased risk for cancer?
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 3:56 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
I'm not equating them. But if therapy is effective to convince people to accept their bodies, why not recommend it for teens who are a bit hairy. I doubt their rate of attempted suicide comes close to that of transgender youth.

In any case, with respect to the claims of regret, a 2016 Washington Post article states, "These statistics and misstatements are based on outdated research. More recent studies suggest that less than 4 percent of people who get gender-reassignment surgery regret it. Researchers have also found that the surgery dramatically reduces suicide rates among trans people. That makes sense — the surgery can improve self-esteem, body image and general life satisfaction. This is why the international standard of care for adolescents and adults in many countries is to offer transition services."

A 2009 Swedish study found that 95 percent of individuals who transitioned report positive life outcomes as a result.

Again, as Marina points out, surgery is usually a last resort, and a number of transgender people never have surgery.


But if an effective and humane type of therapy was developed that would help people accept their bodies, rather than do something that could ultimately harm them, why would that not be considered an acceptable alternative to surgery and medication? That seems to be where this pediatrician is headed with all of this. Asking a teen to accept hair or buck teeth is asking them to accept something that the average person is correcting.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 4:06 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
In any case, with respect to the claims of regret, a 2016 Washington Post article states, "These statistics and misstatements are based on outdated research. More recent studies suggest that less than 4 percent of people who get gender-reassignment surgery regret it. Researchers have also found that the surgery dramatically reduces suicide rates among trans people. That makes sense — the surgery can improve self-esteem, body image and general life satisfaction. This is why the international standard of care for adolescents and adults in many countries is to offer transition services."

First of all, let's note that this was an opinion piece, not news coverage. That said, the author is apparently a clinician with some expertise, so let's take his arguments seriously.

Start with the study of satisfaction with transitioning (
S-x Reassignment Outcomes)

Quote:
Eligibility for treatment was largely based upon gender dysphoria, psychological stability, and physical appearance.

This study selected people who were likely to "pass" as the opposite gender with greater ease. Since such individuals are generally more successful at transitioning, it makes perfect sense that they would be more satisfied with the results.

Quote:
Male-to-female transsexuals with more psychopathology and cross-gender symptoms in childhood, yet less gender dysphoria at application, were more likely to drop out prematurely.

Or, "people who had thought they were transgender as kids but turned out not to be are more likely not to ultimately transition." Which is a good reason for people to delay any decisions with permanent consequences until adulthood.

Quote:
Still, clinicians need to be alert for non-homosexual male-to-females with unfavourable psychological functioning and physical appearance and inconsistent gender dysphoria reports, as these are risk factors for dropping out and poor post-operative results.

People who are unlikely to transition well . . . probably won't be happy with their transitions.

Now let's examine the "international standard of care . . . "

This is a link to WPATH -- the World Professional Association for Transgender Health. They are primarily an organization for medical professionals, and their "standard of care" is that there should be one. While they are obviously supportive of transitioning, they do not advocate specific routes, age requirements, or other specifics.

Given the research that shows that gender dysphoria in childhood is not necessarily permanent and given the serious ramifications of hormone therapy during adolescence, I don't think it's unreasonable that people wait until adulthood to make such decisions. Obviously, there will always be physicians who are willing to prescribe hormone therapy either recklessly; because of their ideology; or in what they feel to be extreme cases.

The real problem is glamourizing gender dysphoria, and that very much seems to be the case right now. Gender dysphoria is an illness, not an identity.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 4:17 pm
The male that I know who transitioned to female is a very unattractive 'female' (was not a good looking male either) and the girl who became a 'boy' is very short and slight for a boy and was very attractive as a girl.
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rydys




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 5:22 pm
lavenderchimes wrote:
There are also definitely cases where people have mixed up chromosomes, and/or are born with mixed up genitals but the Dr. decided to close off the private part and "pretend" the child is a boy. Or visa versa. I knew someone like this. It's called "inters*x." It does happen. Not to mention the thousands of people raised in a time before transgender was acceptable went through puberty to suffer in their adult lives. It doesn't always magically clear up. Biologically speaking, gender is not ALWAYS binary. It's difficult to find the right way to deal with these things. Pretending that it never happens isn't the answer.


When a child is born with ambiguous genitalia the relations is usually decided by the chromosome analysis. This is highly unusual and has nothing to do with gender identity disorder.
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amother
Slateblue


 

Post Tue, Dec 12 2017, 12:56 am
It's not like the hormone treatments (which ARE administered to teens) are harmless either. Yes, it's not as invasive as surgery, but it still has major ramifications.

There is currently a teenage boy who grew breasts from the hormones, and now, a couple of years later, has realized he actually doesn't want to be a girl, and is having to fly overseas to have them removed. So to get them, it's fine. But to remove them it's not?
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