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S-xual harassment
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allthingsblue




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 14 2017, 2:39 pm
It just doesn't stop. Every day someone else is accused. The phenomenon has led me to wonder about some things.
1. Is there really no correlation between the way women dress and how men react? I mean, if a woman is obviously baring her cleavage, or wearing a tight, rear end highlighting skirt, isn't she asking for some sort of attention? (Obviously not rape or molestation, but it seems she's asking for some sort of attention ie a comment or staring.) How can a woman dress like that and then be offended if a guy notices and compliments her chest or backside? She wants him to only notice, but not comment? Or not notice at all?

I KNOW it's not the woman's fault when she is assaulted, but isn't she to some extent perpetuating a culture in which men look at women's bodies as eye candy by dressing a certain way?

How can Hollywood be all about s-x allure, and trying to be considered s-xy, promoting that while culture... but then in real life, they suddenly call foul when their s-xuality is noticed by men?

2. Is it fair that nowadays, all it takes is an accuser or two for a man to lose his job, with no due process? How do we know who's telling the truth, who's exaggerating? Should there be no time limit, ie if someone harassed someone 40 years ago, is it less grievous than someone who did it 20 years ago and 5 years ago...? Is there room to believe a guy may have done teshuva?
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 14 2017, 2:47 pm
1. The responsibilty for behavior falls 100% on the person who is invading another person's bodily autonomy. Period, end of. Didn't we learn in kindergarten to keep our hands to ourself? No hitting, no grabbing, ask nicely.

2. I am disturbed by the lack of due process, and trial by media. Some jerks will be able to dodge the system, but it's better than having innocent lives ruined.

2a. Doing teshuvah does not get you off the hook. You still have to answer for your actions to your victims. You can't just rob a bank, then return the money and say "Oops, I'm sorry. I'll never do it again." You still robbed a bank, and you'll still go to jail for it. Maybe for a lesser amount of time, but you will get your reckoning in this world. Teshuvah does not cancel out the law of the land.
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allthingsblue




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 14 2017, 2:49 pm
FF- regarding 2a, the law has time limits. There's a statute of limitations. But the jury of public opinion apparently does not have time limits.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 14 2017, 2:50 pm
allthingsblue wrote:
FF- regarding 2a, the law has time limits. There's a statute of limitations. But the jury of public opinion apparently does not have time limits.


Right. And that goes to 2. I find it very problematic that public opinon has so much sway. We have a justice system for a reason.
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leah233




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 14 2017, 2:56 pm
FranticFrummie wrote:
1. The responsibilty for behavior falls 100% on the person who is invading another person's bodily autonomy. Period, end of. Didn't we learn in kindergarten to keep our hands to ourself? No hitting, no grabbing, ask nicely.


Do you believe that no one is ever responsible for the way their behavior was reacted to?

As one high school teacher put it (it wasn't on the topic of tznius and yes this is very politically incorrect) if you go to (ethnic neighborhood that was well known as a place to avoid at all costs) and scream a racial slur while it is true that beating someone up or worse because they said a racial slur is no excuse that still doesn't take away from the fact that the person who did it is no innocent victim.

They easily could have avoided it and asked for what they got .
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 14 2017, 4:08 pm
I have trouble with a lot of these claims. If a scantily clad woman goes to a hotel room with a man, then she should own her contribution to the guy pressuring her.

These girls that get drunk and pass out and then complain. They should have some responsibility to their own assault. I am not saying they deserved it - simply that their behavior contributed to their problems.

It is not a popular opinion today, but ladies don't place themselves in many of these situations. Woman should follow common sense rules like not getting drunk enough to pass out publicly .

Some of this me too is pure garbage. Me too, I got s-xually assaulted because some fat old dude asked for my phone number. Jose Canseco is right in the sense that if a good looking dude asked for a woman's phone number that wouldn't me a me too moment. Well maybe if he later rejected her it would be.

By believing woman regardless of their motive, we are giving them absolution of their responsibility along with the power to destroy innocent men.

We should at least look at the accusations critically.
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Simple1




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 14 2017, 4:33 pm
A good analogy for this is: if I leave my front door open or my car unlocked and get robbed - the thief is 100% guilty. But it's still careless and somewhat irresponsible of me to leave my stuff unsecured.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 14 2017, 4:36 pm
It's called "slut shaming." You deserved it. You wore that shirt, how do you expect me not to grope you. You wore that skirt. Of course you wanted me to put my hand up it. You drank too much and passed out with your skirt up. Of course I had to rape you. You wear that skirt, that shirt, those heels (that sheitl, that makeup), you wanted it. And you can't expect me to control myself.

No. Just no.

No one -- or at least no right-minded person, and no one I've seen -- is suggesting that men should be fired or removed from office for noticing a woman. We can all differentiate between an off-hand offensive comments and pervasive harassment, or actual physical contact.

That's not to say that off-hand comments are acceptable, particularly in the workplace. Even recipients of those off-hand comments are entitled to say "me too." I am a bit larger on top. Even wearing baggy sweatshirts, I'd hear "hmmm, hmmm, look at those t1ts" ""I'd love to get my hands on those, how about it baby" "Can you imagine the size of those nipples; I'd love to suck me some of that" on a regular basis. (Not at work, BTW.) These are the things that are said to make women feel small and subservient; to make them feel less. Yes, Me Too. And even if I wore a lower cut shirt, still Me Too.

But the allegations made against celebrities and politicians go well beyond that. Walking around naked in front of employees and associates. Who in their right mind could ever think that's appropriate? Giving a subordinate a z3x toy, and telling her how you'd like to use it on her. Is there really any clothing that says "give me a d1ldo?" (I actually don't know what he gave her, FTR.) Masturb@t1ng in front of people? Pressuring them to perform z3x acts in return for job advancement. It doesn't matter how one dresses. All of these things are morally repugnant, not to mention illegal.

And placing the blame on women is wrong.

It saddens me to see how pervasive this is.
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Simple1




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 14 2017, 4:39 pm
I must add that I was talking generally, not commenting on the specific news stories.
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shoshanim999




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 14 2017, 4:52 pm
allthingsblue wrote:
It just doesn't stop. Every day someone else is accused. The phenomenon has led me to wonder about some things.
1. Is there really no correlation between the way women dress and how men react? I mean, if a woman is obviously baring her cleavage, or wearing a tight, rear end highlighting skirt, isn't she asking for some sort of attention? (Obviously not rape or molestation, but it seems she's asking for some sort of attention ie a comment or staring.) How can a woman dress like that and then be offended if a guy notices and compliments her chest or backside? She wants him to only notice, but not comment? Or not notice at all?

I KNOW it's not the woman's fault when she is assaulted, but isn't she to some extent perpetuating a culture in which men look at women's bodies as eye candy by dressing a certain way?

How can Hollywood be all about s-x allure, and trying to be considered s-xy, promoting that while culture... but then in real life, they suddenly call foul when their s-xuality is noticed by men?

2. Is it fair that nowadays, all it takes is an accuser or two for a man to lose his job, with no due process? How do we know who's telling the truth, who's exaggerating? Should there be no time limit, ie if someone harassed someone 40 years ago, is it less grievous than someone who did it 20 years ago and 5 years ago...? Is there room to believe a guy may have done teshuva?



You keep using the word "notice". Many of the claims in the news were much more than noticing. When a Hollywood bigshot is in the news for zexual misconduct, you do realize there was alot more than noticing and commenting that was going on.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 14 2017, 5:00 pm
shoshanim999 wrote:
You keep using the word "notice". Many of the claims in the news were much more than noticing. When a Hollywood bigshot is in the news for zexual misconduct, you do realize there was alot more than noticing and commenting that was going on.


I want to keep unliking and liking this, so it will be like I liked it lots of times.
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Bluesky 1




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 14 2017, 5:59 pm
Six of wands, you do realize that in a perfect world if a woman is provocatively dressed and gets drunk, then Passes out then the man will walk away and everything is ok. The world is not perfect, so we as women should be aware and careful of the opportunistic and immoral men.

That doesn't mean that we should allow ourselves to be harassed and abused. It means we're not living in a perfect world.

Just like we put up locks and cameras for those people who will steal given the opportunity. We as women need to take precautions.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 14 2017, 6:44 pm
Women are finally learning how to define consent in their own terms, in a way that gives them autonomy and dignity.

A nervous giggle does not mean YES
A nervous "no" does not mean YES
Being drunk does not mean YES
Being in the wrong neighborhood, dorm room, bar, etc. does not mean YES

Consent looks like this:

"Do you want to come to my room and have hot, wild zex?"
"YES, that sounds fantastic!"
"Is it OK if I touch you like this?"
"Oh YES, don't stop!"

If you're not hearing those types of phrases, then you are not communicating effectively at best. At worse, you may be at risk of being coercive - or more.

A happy, sober, enthusiastic YES! is the zexiest thing anyone can hear. Whether you're having a one night stand at the office Xmas party, or in a long term committed marraige, follow the formula and you can't possibly go wrong.

Anything less than an enthusiastic YES has immense potential to go south very quickly for both parties invovled.

You know what type of guys don't wait to hear YES? Insecure, pathetic losers. That's who.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 14 2017, 6:59 pm
Bluesky 1 wrote:
Six of wands, you do realize that in a perfect world if a woman is provocatively dressed and gets drunk, then Passes out then the man will walk away and everything is ok. The world is not perfect, so we as women should be aware and careful of the opportunistic and immoral men.

That doesn't mean that we should allow ourselves to be harassed and abused. It means we're not living in a perfect world.

Just like we put up locks and cameras for those people who will steal given the opportunity. We as women need to take precautions.


We take precautions because there are bad people out there.

But if you drive a nice car, but its stolen, no one says "she was asking for it, driving a car like that."

If you dress nicely, and live in a nice neighborhood, no one says "well, what did she expect. putting it out there like that" if your house is broken into it.

Even if you forget to lock your door, no one tells you that you must have really wanted someone to steal your things.

Its only when it comes to women, and their bodies, that we place blame, and justify the acts of bad people.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 14 2017, 7:01 pm
SixOfWands wrote:

Its only when it comes to women, and their bodies, that we place blame, and justify the acts of bad people.


THIS!
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 14 2017, 7:15 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
We take precautions because there are bad people out there.

But if you drive a nice car, but its stolen, no one says "she was asking for it, driving a car like that."

If you dress nicely, and live in a nice neighborhood, no one says "well, what did she expect. putting it out there like that" if your house is broken into it.

Even if you forget to lock your door, no one tells you that you must have really wanted someone to steal your things.

Its only when it comes to women, and their bodies, that we place blame, and justify the acts of bad people.


And when you leave your car unattended with the keys in it, and the car gets stolen, claims can be denied.

If a business checkbook is not left lockup in a safe, and checks are stolen and cashed, the bank is not liable.

Why should we be no less careful with our person?
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allthingsblue




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 14 2017, 7:20 pm
In my mind, it's two separate entities.
The bad guys (who did all these reprehensible things) should be punished, whether by law, or by being fired etc.
And the women should do what they can to avoid becoming sitting ducks. Two separate entities.
No, the bad guys are no excuses! But why are women enabling this behaviour? Why give a pervert something to look at? (Yes, I know that Weinstein, lauer etc all did much worse than just looking.)

Also, the story of the Kentucky representative who committed suicide scared me. I hope his accuser was telling the strict truth. If not, she has blood on her hands.


Last edited by allthingsblue on Thu, Dec 14 2017, 7:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 14 2017, 7:21 pm
FranticFrummie wrote:
Women are finally learning how to define consent in their own terms, in a way that gives them autonomy and dignity.

A nervous giggle does not mean YES
A nervous "no" does not mean YES
Being drunk does not mean YES
Being in the wrong neighborhood, dorm room, bar, etc. does not mean YES

Consent looks like this:

"Do you want to come to my room and have hot, wild zex?"
"YES, that sounds fantastic!"
"Is it
OK if I touch you like this?"

"Oh YES, don't stop!"

If you're not hearing those types of phrases, then you are not communicating effectively at best. At worse, you may be at risk of being coercive - or more.

A happy, sober, enthusiastic YES! is the zexiest thing anyone can hear. Whether you're having a one night stand at the office Xmas party, or in a long term committed marraige, follow the formula and you can't possibly go wrong.

Anything less than an enthusiastic YES has immense potential to go south very quickly for both parties invovled.

You know what type of guys don't wait to hear YES? Insecure, pathetic losers. That's who.
[b]


Way way way way way too many of these me too accusations consist of asking questions like that!!!

DT is being vilified for asking for a phone number. He is also being vilified for oogling a beauty contestant. Sheesh!
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 14 2017, 7:41 pm
allthingsblue wrote:
In my mind, it's two separate entities.
The bad guys (who did all these reprehensible things) should be punished, whether by law, or by being fired etc.
And the women should do what they can to avoid becoming sitting ducks. Two separate entities.
No, the bad guys are no excuses! But why are women enabling this behaviour? Why give a pervert something to look at? (Yes, I know that Weinstein, lauer etc all did much worse than just looking.)

Also, the story of the Kentucky representative who committed suicide scared me. I hope his accuser was telling the strict truth. If not, she has blood on her hands.


How closely have you actually been following these stories? All of the recent allegations have been true according to the perpetrators (Louis class, Matt Lauer, etc) so I wouldn’t waste time feeling bad for them. Seems like these Hollywood big shots felt like they could get away with anything.

Also I don’t think the big fuss is over the men noticing attractive women or even commenting. It was them saying have zex with me or you won’t work in this Industry. Now, part of me feels that maybe they just should have said, ok I won’t work in this industry then. But I guess that’s easier said than done.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 15 2017, 1:19 am
SixOfWands wrote:
It's called "slut shaming." You deserved it. You wore that shirt, how do you expect me not to grope you. You wore that skirt. Of course you wanted me to put my hand up it. You drank too much and passed out with your skirt up. Of course I had to rape you. You wear that skirt, that shirt, those heels (that sheitl, that makeup), you wanted it. And you can't expect me to control myself.

No. Just no.

No one -- or at least no right-minded person, and no one I've seen -- is suggesting that men should be fired or removed from office for noticing a woman. We can all differentiate between an off-hand offensive comments and pervasive harassment, or actual physical contact.


I don't know what it's called, but I do know that it's time for women to take some of the blame. Not equal blame - no, I understand that this is usually the man's fault - but at least the understanding should be there that there ARE some behaviors that can be misconstrued as an invitation. I am sure that you never did such a thing, but I have seen women (not frum, and probably not Jewish) make suggestive comments, and innuendos as well. If a man would to assume by these comments that this woman is open to more, perhaps in speech or in action, can you then completely blame him? And if you feel that he should, then perhaps you are over-estimating the emotional intelligence of the average male?

If you are creating clear lines in the sand, and the lines are crossed - that's one thing. But if the lines are so fuzzy that they are barely visible, and then you get upset if those lines are crossed - I think that is a completely different kettle of fish.

To be honest, I don't even know that these women really do understand what they are doing, and that is to me, the saddest part of the story. Women today are expected to be okay with a certain amount of innuendo in conversation, they are expected to be okay with a dress code that a harlot would not have worn a hundred years ago, and my opinion is that sometimes they are so confused, that they themselves are not sure where the lines are. A woman has to be gatekeeper for her own body, and she can't expect anyone else to do that for her. She certainly cannot expect a man she meets to do that for her.

IMHO, I see a tremendous amount of confusion by both men and women as to what the boundaries are, as to what is ok, and what is not ok. Where is the line that this is ok, and where is the line that this is not ok. Perhaps that is why an otherwise intelligent woman can make the mistake to assume that she can join a man in his hotel room, and his intentions are completely platonic. Or go somewhere private with a guy, with both of them drunk, and expect that nothing will happen? OR, am I underestimating these women, and are they perhaps truly lying when they say - I didn't know?

In any case, I think it is time for society to take the gatekeeping of women's se*xuality away from the men, and give this responsibility at least partially back to the women, where it has always been until very recent times.
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