S-xual harassment | Imamother

saw50st8

Fri, Dec 15 2017, 7:48 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

I don't know what it's called, but I do know that it's time for women to take some of the blame. Not equal blame - no, I understand that this is usually the man's fault - but at least the understanding should be there that there ARE some behaviors that can be misconstrued as an invitation. I am sure that you never did such a thing, but I have seen women (not frum, and probably not Jewish) make suggestive comments, and innuendos as well. If a man would to assume by these comments that this woman is open to more, perhaps in speech or in action, can you then completely blame him? And if you feel that he should, then perhaps you are over-estimating the emotional intelligence of the average male?

If you are creating clear lines in the sand, and the lines are crossed - that's one thing. But if the lines are so fuzzy that they are barely visible, and then you get upset if those lines are crossed - I think that is a completely different kettle of fish.

To be honest, I don't even know that these women really do understand what they are doing, and that is to me, the saddest part of the story. Women today are expected to be okay with a certain amount of innuendo in conversation, they are expected to be okay with a dress code that a harlot would not have worn a hundred years ago, and my opinion is that sometimes they are so confused, that they themselves are not sure where the lines are. A woman has to be gatekeeper for her own body, and she can't expect anyone else to do that for her. She certainly cannot expect a man she meets to do that for her.

IMHO, I see a tremendous amount of confusion by both men and women as to what the boundaries are, as to what is ok, and what is not ok. Where is the line that this is ok, and where is the line that this is not ok. Perhaps that is why an otherwise intelligent woman can make the mistake to assume that she can join a man in his hotel room, and his intentions are completely platonic. Or go somewhere private with a guy, with both of them drunk, and expect that nothing will happen? OR, am I underestimating these women, and are they perhaps truly lying when they say - I didn't know?

In any case, I think it is time for society to take the gatekeeping of women's se*xuality away from the men, and give this responsibility at least partially back to the women, where it has always been until very recent times.

It's rarely about "misconstrued as an invitation" items. Usually, it's a man who wants to get his way who decides to "misconstrue" the invitation.

FF is right, just ask the question!

I do think many people make foolish decisions, but that still doesn't mean another person can take advantage of that. Regardless of what they think the signals are. A woman dressing s-xy does not mean that it's an invitation to grope her. A person in power needs to be extra careful because their authority can coerce someone into doing something they don't want to do.

Do I think Hollywood is a good industry to work in? No, but that doesn't make Harvey Weinstein any less guilty.

Amarante

Fri, Dec 15 2017, 8:13 am

Squishy wrote:

[b]

Way way way way way too many of these me too accusations consist of asking questions like that!!!

DT is being vilified for asking for a phone number. He is also being vilified for oogling a beauty contestant. Sheesh!

He is being vilified for bragging about walking into an area where teenage girls were undressing to inspect them.

He is being vilified for grabbing a woman and pinning her to the wall when she was interviewing him for People Magazine. Hardly an invitation by the woman to be raped. She was saved only because his butler happened to walk in.

The other woman who actually had the guts to go on record regarding him had similar stories of PHYSICAL attacks including the woman who had the misfortune to sit next to him on a plane.

This is not about s*x just as rape is not about s*x. It is about power and use of that power over women.

Except for Moore, those figures who have gone done have ADMITTED they did obscene acts which did not consist of whistling; ogling or just asking a woman out on a date. Nor did these women do anything other than try to exist.

If you blame women for this, you are no different than when people blamed rape victims for somehow deserving it because of the way they dressed or their past history. Those kinds of questions have, rightfully, been barred in trials as the victim's past history is not permissible line of questioning.

It's a very ironic world where someone who admits guilt is punished versus a pig like Trump who is a verified abuser and debaser who remains as President or Moore who denied very believable assertions and who had most of the Republic party actively backing his election compared to Senator Franken who was nudged out of his Senate seat for merely taking a tasteless picture and Conyers who also was forced to resign his Congressional seat.

leah233

Fri, Dec 15 2017, 9:17 am

One of the problems about this issue is that there is no real consequence for making false accusations. Even if someone is found innocent the one who made the accusation will (1)have caused enormous damage and (2)still have tremendous support from those who took her up her cause.

I know someone who was falsely accused of child molestation by his ex wife during divorce proceedings. She had their children tell their therapist that they were inappropriately touched by him and worse . Ultimately he had a rare acquittal from such charges. He took the therapist to a beis din asking her to pay for his legal fees the allegations cost him. The beis din paskened that she does have to pay for helping a false accusation (she refused so he never got his money back).

I know many people reading this will have their blood boiling. How could BD make a mandated reporter pay for doing her job? But if there is no consequence to a mandated reporter for making false accusations and there is a consequence if she is quiet about a suspicion then you are going to end up with a lot of false accusations.

33055

Fri, Dec 15 2017, 10:07 am

Amarante wrote:

Let the truth stand on its own. Stop piling on the ****. I doubt all woman who accused Moore because two played fast and loose with the truth. The same is true of all the me too piling on.

DT asking for a phone number is not in the same league as a man forcing himself on a woman.

The latest headline is a woman have some reality star oral zex 15 times. He thinks it is an intimate consensual relationship. She is claiming coersion years later. She was his makeup artist. How was he supposed to know that the girl didn't want to get on her knees for him if she kept doing it. She had an affair with a celebrity. It ended. She gets headlines.

There are too many stories of woman willingly going to bed and then being remorseful. Then they cry rape.

Conflating everything together delegitamizes real victims. Going back to a guys room after a night out does send a buying signal. Not going back to his room would send a clear message. It isn't fair to go to a guy's room and then cry zexual harassment because he makes a pass. Note: I am not conflating zexual harassment with rape. Rape is never ok.

dancingqueen

Fri, Dec 15 2017, 12:55 pm

Squishy wrote:

You sound very angry about this. But just so that I understand, if a woman has a few drinks with a man and then goes back with him to his place perhaps being ok with making out but not going all the way and he forces himself on her despite her protestations, is that still rape, even though she sent a “clear message”?

This thread is bizarre. The op brought up the recent trend of s-xual harassment and assault cases that various women have experienced at the hands of powerful men in the media. These have been admitted by the perps in all the recent cases. No one is denying it. And yet, this thread is all about blaming the women and how bad false accusations are. It’s weird that a women’s website is so full of misogyny.

33055

Fri, Dec 15 2017, 1:23 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

You mis-read my post. I said:

It isn't fair to go to a guy's room and then cry zexual harassment because he makes a pass.

I was very clear rape is NOT ok. Rape is never ok. A woman always has the right to say no. However, it is wrong to cry zexual harassment when you willingly put yourself into a situation that normally leads to relations. It is always ok to cry rape if you were raped. Morning after regret isn't rape.

You are conflating rape with s-xual harassment. Some examples are very clear what is s-xual harassment. No one is arguing with those. My point is that a bunch of cr@p is being thrown in. Right now the pendulum has swung fully in favor of believing every woman over every man and having knee jerk reactions without looking at some of these things critically.

It is not misogyny to want to know the truth before condemning a man.

33055

Fri, Dec 15 2017, 2:10 pm

Amarante wrote:

Trump is being vilified by woman who get paid to do so. Having your mortgage paid off is great incentive to exaggerate or make up a story.

The public has the right how much supposed victims are being paid to make accusations.

https://pagesix.com/2017/12/15.....kjINv

Optimystic

Fri, Dec 15 2017, 2:40 pm

Simple1 wrote:

A good analogy for this is: if I leave my front door open or my car unlocked and get robbed - the thief is 100% guilty. But it's still careless and somewhat irresponsible of me to leave my stuff unsecured.

Exactly. Careless or inconsiderate is not the same as criminal, and it should never be an excuse to not investigate or file charges against the perpetrator.
________

While I am aware trial by media can jump to conclusions, I can't say I have much sympathy for the man who had what he thought was a consenting encounter with a stranger or employee or whoever and then she later interprets mere remorse as not giving consent in the first place. Zxual immorality is an aveirah for everyone, not just Jews. If she did not marry him, then the presumption should always be that she did not consent.

Otherwise, what happens is what happens now: most rape allegations are dismissed as he said/she said. Always believing her in these situations would discourage men from unwed encounters in the first place, and that would mean fewer unwanted children and diseases. I don't see the downside.

33055

Fri, Dec 15 2017, 3:11 pm

Optimystic wrote:

Should a man be forced to marry a woman who claimed he asked her for her phone number?

Suppose he did ask her for it?

And suppose she made up the whole convo?

That's the problem with believing women 100%of the time. They have incentives to lie.

Orders of Protection are great ideas when there is abuse. But we often see the unilateral granting of them without a hearing being used to gain advantages in custody and divorce cases.

My friend was going through a divorce. His wife alleged in December that he abused her and her biological daughter. He adopted said daughter. She got an Order of Protection. She got The house which was in his name only, and she sold off his collections. This matter was not heard for almost two years. She didn't tell the girl that he was desperately trying to see her.

She dropped her allegations the day of trial because they were all unsubstantiated. Meanwhile, there was a breach in the relationship between father and daughter that never healed.

There are a lot of liers out there. Now the courts have their eyes open to the abuse of order of Protection and meet them with skeptism.

These abuse allegations should similarly be met with skepticism because of all the incentives to lie and exaggerate. Probably the majority are true but we are condemning the innocent.

dancingqueen

Fri, Dec 15 2017, 4:36 pm

Squishy wrote:

No you were unclear. You said when a woman goes to a hotel room with a man after drinking with him she is sending a clear message. Then you tacked on that you condemn rape. So I was just clarifying that a woman still has a right to say no to relations after she sends a clear message.

In terms of harassment, again, all of the recent allegations have been true and acknowledged by the perp. And when fake allegations are put out there they are often uncovered such as was the case with project veritas.

I don’t think it’s so easy for a woman to make an accusation especially against a powerful man. She could lose her career and subjects herself to slut shaming, as seen here.

FranticFrummie

Sat, Dec 16 2017, 12:34 pm

In this thread alone, among women who consider themselves modern and enlightened, I am seeing a lot of slut shaming, victim blaming, and excusing men who "can't help themselves."

If CVS I were a victim, I would be reluctant to come forward if there was a chance that you would be on my jury. I am a strong woman who believes in justice, and if I am intimidated by that, just think how a woman would feel if she were even a tiny bit insecure about being believed.

For this reason alone, I think false accusations are extremely rare, and if anything, actual legitimate assaults are very underreported.

Anyone who is in any way being an apologist for assault is enabling the continued victimization of women everywhere. G-d forbid some day it would be you, or your daughters.

When I was raped, I was 16. I never told anyone, because I was raised to believe that if I lost my virginity, I would be "ruined". I also learned that it was because I was asking for it and probably led the poor guy on. I knew I would be blamed. Therefore, I suffered with the after effects alone, and it took me years to process it because I never got help until a long time later.

So think about what you are saying about assault victims, and what messages you are giving to other women and young girls. For that matter, think about what messages you are giving to men and boys. Think HARD. Is this really the world you want to live in?

33055

Sat, Dec 16 2017, 6:23 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

I was very clear about zexual harassment. This thread is about zexual harassment. Zexual harassment does not equal rape. You didn't read correctly. I tacked on rape to differentiate the two because they are conflated constantly as you are doing.

It is understandable if a woman goes back to a man's hotel room after spending time with him that he thinks things are going to move further. A lady does NOT go back to a guy's room. If that is slut shaming, then it is you who are calling the women sluts.

Don't be ridiculous. In this witch hunt atmosphere it is very easy to throw around false accusations and collect money from the media.

Halacha has the right of this. If you follow halacha, you are not as likely to zexually harrased as those that don't.

BTW - you lie when you say"all of the recent allegations have been true and acknowledged by the perp."

What about today's story of a man accused of rape because he didn't want to see the phantom victim anymore when he went away to university She sent him texts asking for 'casual relations'. She texted him how much she liked it. She also shared her fantasies of violent relations and rape. But these weren't turned over to the defense. It was only after 2 years of the legal process on the eve of trial that he was believed.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/n...../amp/

It is pure nonsense to believe woman every time without looking into facts.

33055

Sat, Dec 16 2017, 6:27 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

I am sorry for what you are went, but to believe women unconditionally is just as wrong as to not believe them.

This is just today's rape trial that fell apart because of a lying woman who claimed she was a victim.

https://nypost.com/2017/12/16/.....aled/

There are many other cases. Not all women are truthful.

DrMom

Sun, Dec 17 2017, 5:56 am

Optimystic wrote:

You are suggesting criminalizing all premarital sx and automatically classifying any man taking part in such behavior as a rapist.

Sounds like something the Taliban would enact (although they would probably blame the woman, not the man).

The US is not a theocracy. Throwing innocent men in jail for the sole purpose of furthering a religious agenda is evil.

33055

Sun, Dec 17 2017, 9:57 am

DrMom wrote:

The oft quoted statistic that only 2% - 10% of the rape accusations are false is used to support the fact we should believe females always. Hashem was willing to save a city if there were only 10 innocent people. What gives these arrogant misandrists the right to judge harsher than Hashem?

BTW the statistic of 2% - 10% is also misleading. Only 35% of the rape allegations lead to formal charges or discipline.

"In many of the cases examined by the authors of the study, there was simply not enough evidence to bring charges. A rape might have occurred, but it might not have. Such cases are not classified as false."

"Specifically, in their analysis of s-xual-assault cases at a large university, the authors found that 5.9 percent of cases were provably false. However, 44.9 percent cases “did not proceed” – meaning there was insufficient evidence, the accuser was uncooperative, or the incident did not meet the legal standard of assault. An additional 13.9 percent of cases could not be categorized due to lack of information. That leaves 35.3 percent of cases that led to formal charges or discipline against the accused. So there is obviously a lot of uncertainty here, a lot of he-said/she-said when allegations are filed. It would be a mistake to conclude, on the basis of the existing evidence, that nine out of ten assault claims are genuine."

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.....16536