Mesivtas : How to choose?

Motek

Mon, Nov 05 2007, 7:38 am

shalhevet wrote:

Perhaps, instead of those in America looking at those in Israel as having a different culture etc, they could recognize that talmidei chachamim in EY as well as the entire chinuch system are operating under far less influence from non jews and realize that that might make it worth examining.

it's definitely worth examining for its maalos and chesronos, to learn from the good and avoid the bad, and I was thinking maybe we should have a separate thread about Chinuch in Israel vs. US - Pros and Cons

I just spoke with someone in Israel yesterday who told me of some serious drawback with Israeli chareidi chinuch (which I knew about, but she was telling me how it affected some people she knew and how they handled it). HOWEVER, as I pointed out, the OP is not living in Israel, nor was she asking about possibly sending her son there. So I fail to see how any mention of the Israeli yeshiva system is relevant here.

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Toilet training is really a good example. How come there aren't any Israeli kids who aren't yet ready to learn when they are pushing three (or later?) Maybe it's their American mommies who aren't yet ready to pass on a bit of responsibility?

I agree.

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Chareidi boys in Israel learn aleph bais at 3 and are reading at 4-5. They are not pushed and they are not miserable. They are delighted with their achievements.

Is it even worth a mention that Israeli children are speaking the language that they are being taught to read? Though I do agree with you (and posted in the Keria thread) that I think even English speaking children can do the same.

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There are stories about many gedolei hador in Europe whose parents sent them to far away yeshivas even before bar mitzva so that they could grow in Torah.

You know that only the best and the brightest were sent and those were few in number.

Motek

Mon, Nov 05 2007, 7:52 am

Imaonwheels wrote:

I believe a time in an all male environment is healthy. I also believe that learning to be responsible for yourself, handle money and solve problems w/o Mommy and Daddy is best done in the safe environment of the yeshiva katana and not in your own apt, college campus or that hefkerville for 18 yr olds called the year in Israel.

I agree with everything you write except for the age to send away.

By the way, if I replaced the word "male" with "female" in this paragraph, and "yeshiva ketana" with "high school," would that also be your view?

You are right about the bachurim as well as girls, off in Israel, who are up to all sorts of things their parents would be horrified about.

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The cheder has alway been directed by talmidei chachamim and should not be taking directions from frei or non Jews. The only way to do that i9s to make sure that only talmidei chachamim who are experts in Jewish education have any input whatsoever to curriculum.

There is a picture of R' Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz, one of the pioneers of chinuch in America, who started Torah Umesorah, with his sleeves rolled up, in Camp Mesivta, watching the boys play a ball game. He was far from being a "frivolous" personality, yet he took pleasure in watching the boys playing and said he thought it was important for them (as heard from his daughter).

I know that in Israel any form of exercise (bike riding, ball playing) is viewed as avoda zara, but please recognize that numerous "authentic" mechanchim disagree with that view and think that this approach is destroying many Yiddishe kinderlach.

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b. Why the need to exchange Jewish terms for those of school.
I have yet to figure out what a Pre 1-A is except that it is little kids. And why does it upset you that I insist on using the normative Jewish (not Israeli) terms?

Upset? Huh? I pointed out that throughout your posts you are presenting your view with zero regard to the OP's question and background. If you want to be understood by someone sending to American yeshivos, it would be helpful and considerate to use their language.

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c. Why is the advice of chaza"l (which they say adds to yiras shamayim) to begin teaching boys to read kometz aleh oh at age 3 ignored? And the bringing of the boys to the melamed after their upsheren a mere ceremony with no real meaning as tomorrow the boy will go back to the morah?

We've discussed this before and you have yet to provide a source that insists that a child must go to school at age three. The Rambam says otherwise. He says it can be as late as 6 and it depends on the child. Nor have you provided a source that says that a mother cannot teach her child to read at home.

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There are threads here and on other forums by people who complain for weeks that their son has to go to cheder. They don't want to let him go, they don't want to toilet train him. Plenty of threads were a mother is crying that until 1pm is too long, 3 days a week too much, etc. There are quite a few threads where mothers couldn't control themselves and made reasons to take the kid out.

In most of the threads I've read, it's been about sending toddlers out of the home and for long hours.

Ruchel

Mon, Nov 05 2007, 8:18 am

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in your own apt, college campus or that hefkerville for 18 yr olds called the year in Israel.

I personally disagree with sending a kid away even after hs graduation, unless you really need to (no university around at all). And even then, I think you should send to a relative, not all alone. I’m also against the year in Israel. I know some who went, and it wasn’t good AT ALL.

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The badatz has asked people to not rent to them to force them to live in the dorms and not take apartments.

Certainly dorms are better if they have to be there.

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taking pictures of themselves in Arab villages w/o a weapon and being clueless about where it is safe and where not. They always give us these pics as keepsakes.

I’m sure they know it’s wrong.
No one can be that stupid.

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Agree with that. I’m shocked by these kids who are 3 and in diapers!

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I'm quite sure that for those mothers it was terribly painful

mmmm. what about for the KID?

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not for our personal pleasure, but our responsibility to help them grow in Torah.

I soooo disagree children are not for our pleasure. Of course they are our responsibility to raise, grow in Torah… but I will never agree they’re not for our pleasure. We should enjoy as many things as possible, if they are allowed.

Imaonwheels

Mon, Nov 05 2007, 8:22 am

First, first - last last.
Yes, I feel girls are different. The male role is basically with his work, shul, learning, etc. The woman has to know that her home comes first. Many rabbonim say that if their is disagreement on where to live the husband should defer to the wife as she will be the one there all day while dh is learning or working. There are exceptions - BT girls, giyoros, bad home situations. Just like girls don't have a seudas mitzva for BM because it is in contradiction to "kol kvuda bas melech".

OK, R' Feivel was for baseball at camp. I know few who would have a problem with that. Sports as in playing a game a.z.? That one is new to me. Professional sports culture, baseball cards and being a devoted fan of a team or player we also call an a.z. But that is because we have seen in the frei world how nuts and how far it can be taken. To enjoy playing or watching if it doesn't interfere w/studies a.z. That one I would have to see.

Rambam at age 6 is talking clearly about learning Chumash, not learning reading which he should already start by 3 or 4 depending on maturity - said Rambam. There are threads here wondering if it is harmful to begin teaching alef beis at 4. The Torah reason why kids are sent to school at all is that the melamed is a shaliach for the father who has the mitzvah to teach his son. Most parents, especially if they have more than one child or work, do not have the time and/or ability to teach their child proper reading, davening, etc. And to do it with them every day and not let their personal issues interfere. There is no halacha to send a 6 yr old either if his father is a skilled teacher and has the time.

And I am still waiting for a Torah source for the trading of the melamed for the morah for boys.

BTW, there is also an injunction for tinokos shel beis rabban to learn all day and into the night. What ever happened to that one except in Kislev maybe? In this one many Israeli schools are lax as well and some come home for lunch and rest and then go back yo fulfill this.

Ruchel

Mon, Nov 05 2007, 8:43 am

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The woman has to know that her home comes first.

In my circles they say that home/family (not housework) should come first for both parents. We work to make the family live only. People who can do without don't work. There is no work culture like in other countries.

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Professional sports culture, baseball cards and being a devoted fan of a team or player we also call an a.z. But that is because we have seen in the frei world how nuts and how far it can be taken.

I agree but not about avoda zara.

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To enjoy playing or watching if it doesn't interfere w/studies

well, that's the norm for normal people...

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some come home for lunch and rest

well, even adults cannot contrentate all day without a break.

Motek

Mon, Nov 05 2007, 11:04 am

Imaonwheels wrote:

Sports as in playing a game a.z.?

I may have posted about this, or a link to an article in the Jewish Observer about aliya. If I remember it correctly, the question arose about how to explain to children that what they refer to as avoda zara in israel, is what their rebbi back in canada played with them at recess.

It's news to you that ball games and bikes are frowned upon or outright condemned for chareidi yeshiva children? Shalhevet, care to confirm or modify?

I'm not getting into the age/school/morah issue any further. You haven't convinced me and I won't convince you.

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there is also an injunction for tinokos shel beis rabban to learn all day and into the night. What ever happened to that one except in Kislev maybe? In this one many Israeli schools are lax as well and some come home for lunch and rest and then go back yo fulfill this.

So you want boys from age three to learn all day and into the night. Any mechanchim agree with you that you can quote?

Motek

Mon, Nov 05 2007, 11:06 am

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As a mother of 6 boys who all are through or in the middle except for one 12 yr old and being involved in the chinuch world I offered my advice.

Did your boys grow up in a stable home environment? Did they grow up with a father who learned in yeshivos and could learn with them? It doesn't sound like it from some of your other posts. Perhaps your advice is colored by your and your sons' personal experiences.

Another thing - as far as I know, no American rav, rosh yeshiva, gadol, mechanech etc. has encouraged parents to send their mesivta-aged sons away from home as general chinuch advice.

In Brooklyn, where most frum people live outside of Israel, I would guess that something like 95% of mesivta boys attend mesivtos in Brooklyn. Maybe it's 98%, maybe it's 89%, the point is, the overwhelming majority stays local and I haven't heard this discouraged. Actually, I haven't heard this phenomenon commented on at all. It is far more common for boys to attend out-of-town (not necessarily Israeli) yeshivos post high school. That's just the way it is here. You can take it up with the American gedolim if you think they aren't handling this right.

shalhevet

Mon, Nov 05 2007, 12:47 pm

Motek wrote:

It's news to you that ball games and bikes are frowned upon or outright condemned for chareidi yeshiva children? Shalhevet, care to confirm or modify?

Ball games as a culture is definitely looked askance by chareidi boys. My 10 year old ds' idea of something totally dreadful is football! But they certainly play ball. But not formal football, baseball etc.

Bicycles, however, are an absolute must for a chareidi boy - it is actually the culture of games to go riding your bike.

They also play plenty of other games - board games, card games, and at the moment the latest fashion is standing on your head and doing other acrobatic stunts Tongue Out

Imaonwheels

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 7:03 am

Motek wrote:

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As a mother of 6 boys who all are through or in the middle except for one 12 yr old and being involved in the chinuch world I offered my advice.

My boys grew up in a stable home. Yes we divorced but until today my home is and was the stable home for all of my children + my nephew. This post was insulting to me. My children were not nebichs and by the time my oldest son was BM I was remarried. And are you saying that all of children of BTs are nebbicks as well? That they must be shipped out just because their father started yeshiva at age 20? I don't have to take that. My home was one deemed stable enough out dh's entire extended family for my nephew who has suffered so much. Other women come to me for whjat I never had. But my children never lived in 1/2 a home. Not emotionally and not Jewishly.

When I lived alone we stayed home for Shabbos and YT on purpose and invited guests. Mitzvot were mehadrin. I built a sukka and ate in it. There was no reason why any of my boys had to go out except that they were able to get so much more. BTW, teenage insanities have been kept to a minimum in my house and my dd was the winner by far.

I don't have it in front of me but I am very sure the Lubavitcher Rebbe was one of those who spoke highly of boys being in dorm for yeshiva katana. I don't know what other rabbonim outside of Chabad have said because it is irrelevant for my personal choice. I do see the list of family names in Lod, Montreal, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Brunoi,Ohr Yehuda, Migdal HaEmek and other yeshivas. Even Toras Emes.

Another advantage my boys have is now anywhere they are - in Israel, in 770, stuck in Frankfort for a stop over, Pgh - the little traveling they have done they meet "mishpoche". Bachurim, their brothers, cousins, bil, etc of boys they learned with. It truly helps to make chassidim "ein mishpoche" not for those whose fathers where zoche to see the Rebbe Rayatz.

shalhevet

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 11:08 am

Motek wrote:

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Chareidi boys in Israel learn aleph bais at 3 and are reading at 4-5. They are not pushed and they are not miserable. They are delighted with their achievements.

No, it's not worth a mention because English and Yiddish speaking children in Israel learn at the same age, and even my sons, learn to read in Ashkenazi pronunciation which takes a while for the connection to be made to the Sephardi pronunciation of the spoken Hebrew they use. At the age of 4 'ho'ish ro'o es hatus' has absolutely no connection with 'ha'ish ra'a et hatut'.

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There are stories about many gedolei hador in Europe whose parents sent them to far away yeshivas even before bar mitzva so that they could grow in Torah.

You know that only the best and the brightest were sent and those were few in number.

What is the point that you are trying to make? The point was it was done, and it was seen as an ideal, and it was what our great-grandmothers dreamed of.

ruth

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 10:17 pm

I realize that this is going off on a tanget. Nevertheless shalhevets post deserves acknowledgement and consideration.

[quoteThe whole concept of being a teenager is an invention of secular, Western (and more affluent) society that created the idea of an adult according to Torah still being a child with few, if any, responsibilities. ......Along with the fun activities arranged for them in consideration of the fact that they are still young (trips, extracurricular events) they are most definitely expected to take on many adult responsibilities - the boys to learn as much as possible, and the girls to help at home and/or do chessed outside.[/quote]

Wow, shalhevet, you really enlightened me. Now I understand what's been the majors assumptions that have caused some disagreements between my Israeli dh and I. I have so much to learn and unlearn. So much teshuvah! oy.

I just came back from taking my dd to her pediatrician. He told me that he didn't have teenage issues with his two daughters. He tells his patients that if you handle the "terrible two's/three's" need for independence correctly then you won't have "terrible teens." I know that's very simplistic. He also sat down with his dd's when they were preteens and taught them about "as you notice, I do what I can to take care of your needs .... I give you spending money & shlep you .. but if you give me a hard time, I might not be so accomodating to you."

That kind of conversation isn't appropriate for us. We don't let our kids hang out, nor do we have the disposable income to freely give spending money.. The recognition of responsiblity has to come from some where else. (and not just from the abstraction of kavod av v'em.)

[quote]Along with the fun activities arranged for them in consideration of the fact that they are still young (trips, extracurricular events) they are most definitely expected to take on many adult responsibilities - the boys to learn as much as possible, and the girls to help at home and/or do chessed outside. [/quote]

Its time to find some chesed activites for my dd.