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Forum -> Parenting our children -> Teenagers and Older children
Mesivtas : How to choose?
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 09 2008, 10:22 pm
jayne wrote:
I would love guidance on choosing a high school for my eighth grader. He attends a very yeshivish school in Monsey. He's a A++ student. He also loves to follow sports (on the radio) and play sports games on the computer (no internet for him). Any guidance?


This may interest you. Rabbi Berel Wein, formerly rabbi in Monsey and someone who started a yeshiva there, says, "It is my firm personal belief that children should be kept at home for as long as possible, certainly through high school. Children need parents, home support, certainty, stability. This is rarely available, even in the finest of yeshiva or girls' high school dormitories."
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 10 2008, 12:45 am
Motek wrote:
shalhevet wrote:
The point was it was done, and it was seen as an ideal, and it was what our great-grandmothers dreamed of.


Are you aware of any mechanchim today who think that we should be handling our boys just as those yechidim who were iluyim who attended yeshiva and learned 16 hours a day back in Europe were? I am not.


The previous 2 Lubavitcher Rebbes. The Rebbe Rayatz once told a busines man, "You ask my advice in business even though neither I or my father were businessmen. Although I, my father and the generations before were mechanchim you do not ask my advice in chinuch". Both supported the Rebbe Rashab's schedule for Tomchei Temimim. Round the clock education, 4 hour chassidus in the morning and foue in the evening with regular yeshiva schedule in between. Read Kuntress Klalei Chinuch and Hadracha and Kuntress Etz Chayam.

This is still the program in nearly every Chabad yeshiva in the world today. The Rebbe even said the 24 hour environment had to continue into bein haz'manim bey sending to camp, which he called the anvil on which chassidim are formed.

Lod, the largest yeshiva ketanan in Israel with close to 500 students is dorm required and last seder ends at 9:30. Farbrengens, except major days loke Yud Tes Kislev, take place after.
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Chani




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 10 2008, 3:20 am
This debate is certainly interesting. My husband and I have had many discussions about what to do with our oldest once he's BM. My dh unequivocally wants to keep him home. My perspective originally was to send him to the best yeshiva which would be a good fit for him, whether here or out of town. However, twice we've ended up discussing the issue with mechanchim (informally - we're not THAT compulsive since we still have a couple of years to go!). One was chassidish (not Lubavitch) and the other haredi. Their message to us was the same: he's a good boy, you have a good family life and home environment, going away is not the ideal - it's what one settles for when there's no good option where one lives - it's good for the younger boys also to have their big brother around, and even a big 14-15 year old boy still needs his parents' day to day involvement.
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 10 2008, 3:47 am
[The original Yeshiva Tomchei Temimim was certainly not where the talmidim's homes were. They all stayed at the Yeshiva, whatever the exact arrangements were. And ate the famous "kasha of Tomchei Temimim".

I have one son in town, and one out of town. The out of town Yeshiva has a much stronger learning environment, although I am happy BH with how my son who is here is doing, perhaps he would do better still in the out of town Yeshiva, with it's complete detachment from the bustle and temptations of the city.

In town, even when a boy is totally focused on his learning, other students may not be, with a resultant dilution of the class atmosphere. Not that this can't happen out of town, those who tend to waste time and have other interests can still find a way to do that, but less easily.

The supportive environment at home can also be the distracting environment at home. How many boys have a home in which it's possible to not be at all involved in what's going on? I certainly don't. Younger siblings, mothers who can't resist depending on the older children to help out, everything combines to take a potential masmid and make it impossible for his hours at home to be used for learning.

If the home has a less than optimal Torah'dik environment, imo it's essential for the boy to be gotten into a 24 hour Yeshiva one.
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middy




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 10 2008, 11:24 am
there are several options close to brooklyn (and monsey) that "have the best of both worlds". they are not far from brooklyn but just far enough to be "away" where boys can learn without the distractions of coney island etc. my son was accepted into chaim berlin and kaminetz and chose to go to a close OOT yeshiva instead where you can "just" learn (and yes they have english and take regents too). in 9th grade the boys have the options of coming home 2x a week and 3 out of 4 shabbosim.
not for everyone, just wanted to point out, it doesnt have to be all one way or the other.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 10 2008, 6:59 pm
Imaonwheels wrote:
4 hour chassidus in the morning and foue in the evening with regular yeshiva schedule in between... Both supported the Rebbe Rashab's schedule for Tomchei Temimim.


Your numbers are way off. No yeshiva has that schedule. and the Rebbe Rayatz changed the original schedule

The original schedule was 2 hours of Chasidus in the morning and 2 in the evening and 8 hours of Nigleh (Gemara/halacha). The Rebbe Rayatz reduced it to 3 hours of Chassidus a day, 1 and 1/2 in the morning and 1 and 1/2 in the evening. And Nigleh was reduced too, to around 6-7 hours.

Oholei Torah, in Crown Heights, has a mesivta which is attended primarily by local bachurim. The Rebbe was greatly in favor of Oholei Torah.

tzenarena wrote:
How many boys have a home in which it's possible to not be at all involved in what's going on?


Why should they not be at all involved? Confused
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 11 2008, 12:22 am
You are right. I recently heard a quote that someone was asked by the Rebbe"Are they learning 4 hours of chassidus, morning and night. Meaning 2 in the morning and 2 at night. At Lud, Krayot and Kiryat Gat this is certainly true as I have had boys in all 3. Also, true in Rechovot. By yeshiva gedola a guy is usually ready to start learning the Rebbe Rashab's hemshechim. In Lud my ds's class finished Tanya in depth twice in 8th grade and he could walk into a room where I was listening to a shiur and tell me where it was taken from.

The dorm, as was said, does not have to be 500 miles away. If I had a car my kids could be in yeshiva in an hour and a half, because I live way out.

Six boys in dorm and have never had a kid separated from what was going on or cut off from the family. They don't take their turn at dishes? End of the world? One of my kids responsibility in yeshiva is to clear the supper table and wash all the coffee cups and clean the drink corner after dinner. In Israel there is seldom a person who runs around and cleans after the boys spoiling them.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 12 2008, 9:49 am
Quote:
The dorm, as was said, does not have to be 500 miles away.


In Israel, that is correct. However, as you know, many bachurim do not live in Israel and dorming out-of-town often, if not usually, entails a plane trip which means it's quite expensive and not something that is done frequently. One needs to take that into account when talking about a mesivta bachur who is 13-17 vs. a yeshiva gedola age bachur who is 18 and older. The woman who started this thread lives in Monsey and is talking about a high school aged boy.

Quote:
Six boys in dorm and have never had a kid separated from what was going on or cut off from the family.


Because you didn't send them to France from Cheshvan till Nissan as many do. It would be helpful if you expanded your view of this discussion to include those who do not live in Eretz Yisrael, like the original poster.

I agree with you and Tzena about the benefits of dorm life. At the same time, I think a parent needs to carefully consider the age of the child, how far away the yeshiva is, how frequently the child can be visited or come home for Shabbos, the supervision in yeshiva, the child's personality, needs, and readiness for dorm life. I don't think proper chinuch means that ALL children MUST do X and as far as I know, the Rebbe did not say mesivta bachurim must live away from home.

As for the 24 hour environment and comparing it to Tomchei Tmimim back in Russia, if you forbade all communication with the outside world (I.e. no cell phones, calling cards) except for letter writing, then it would be comparable. How many yeshivos do this? Do you think this is a good idea?
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 17 2008, 1:50 am
I didn't send to Brunoi but it is very possible for ffb important families. Saves them from the my dad the big Rav on the BD/RY/major speaker syndrome. A lot of Israeli boys there and in other European yeshivot. Not too many Israeli Lubavitch families would choose an American yeshiva unless on shlichus and want the kids near gps or something. In America it is not necessary either. So someone on the East sends to NY, someone in the midwest sends to Chicago. Only on the West Coast do you really have a problem as far as I know. My friends in Pgh visit their son in Chicago and married dd in CH in their car. I see plenty of adds for yeshivas opening in rural areas, very good idea for providing a frum atmosphere. It has only been maybe 10 years here that the goal became starting enough yeshivot to meet differing needs and having small yeshivot spread out as opposed to huge impersonal mosdos in a large city.

Nobody in NY should have to send out as there is such a huge choice. Almost like being in Y-m.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 17 2008, 11:36 am
I didn't know there were so many foreign boys in Brunoy? the ones I've seen spoke perfect French with no accent, I supposed they were all French. You learn everyday.


Quote:
I see plenty of adds for yeshivas opening in rural areas, very good idea for providing a frum atmosphere.


this I notice even without searching for them. But I also notice that communities tend to settle there, with the parents, and so on. Think Brunoy, Yerres, Aix (for the Litvish)...
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 17 2008, 9:42 pm
The Israeli boys are in Lubavitch. At least what I know.

These yeshivot opening in the US and Israel in rural areas are meant deliberately to take the boys out of the large cities and raise the level where they open. My boys learn in Givat Olga north of Netanya and in a residential neighborhood by the sea. They can enjoy a cleaner environment in many ways than in a city like NY or Chicago.
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amother


 

Post Sun, Feb 17 2008, 9:56 pm
If you could preview your posts imaonwheels, and correct them... They are hard to understand.

Quote:
it is very possible for ffb important families. Saves them from the my dad the big Rav on the BD/RY/major speaker syndrome


Quote:
and raise the level where they open.


etc.
in other threads too

Thanks
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 26 2008, 4:06 am
I am sorry and you are right. I have been ill for the past month and sometimes post drugged in bed.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 06 2008, 11:59 am
This thread was started by someone living in Monsey, and apparently, the attitude towards high school aged boys dorming is different in America than in Israel, with mechanchim in America being generally opposed to it.

I read an interview with a rosh yeshiva in Monsey, Rabbi Moshe Green of "Yeshiva D'Monsey" who was asked his opinion about bachurim living in a dorm (age was not specified). His answer:

"It's not l'chatchila (first choice). A dormitory should only be used when absolutely necessary. A dormitory today can be a dangerous thing, aside from the fact that it is certainly healthy to grow up within normal family dynamics. There are exceptions, however. If there are hashkafa issues or other problems in a family, it would be beneficial for a bachur to sleep away from home. But in general, a dormitory is b'dieved (second choice)."

He did not elaborate but I wonder whether his choice of words "a dormitory today" is significant. I wouldn't be surprised if he thought that it wasn't as potentially dangerous for those bachurim who dormed in the 50's, 60's and 70's.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 06 2008, 3:54 pm
maybe dangers were less discussed and known... I would say on contrary it's less dangerous today.
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