S/o Foreigners opinion of US politics

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amother

Coffee

Wed, Jan 10 2018, 3:03 pm

amother wrote:

The premise of this thread is an attack. Don't you Americans realize how ridiculous you all are for electing such a laughingstock? Why don't you care that everyone else thinks that of you?

Actually, no and no. Everyone is welcome to their opinions, but if you (not you personally) are trying to honestly understand how we-who-elected-Trump see things, some of us here were trying to explain.

Many of us who live here in America are alarmed too. So no, I don't see it as an attack. I see them as rightfully concerned and grateful for the support as we try to pull our country together again.

November 2018 will be a big test whether the country can be salvaged.

amother

Silver

Wed, Jan 10 2018, 3:19 pm

The OP does not speak for all non-Americans (or to limit it, for all Canadians). And frankly, as a Canadian what goes on in the US politically matters a whole lot to us - so her perspective on it (as not being relevant) doesn't reflect how I feel. For example changes to NAFTA (Trump has suggested various things at various times) will effect Canadians greatly.

Also effecting Canadians is the flood of Haitians coming in by foot across the Quebec boarder, out of fear for their lives in the US. see https://theintercept.com/2017/.....rica/

That said - there are lots of people in the US and outside of her boarders who think Trump is a wonderful president. Foreigners just aren't attending rallies.

amother

Copper

Wed, Jan 10 2018, 3:32 pm

amother wrote:

This is a spin-off of the Oprah thread.
I hold American citizenship but have never lived in the US. I follow US politics for the entertainment factor since most of it is not relevant to me personally. Canadians really admire and love our southern neighbors and that hasn't changed at all.

Good points Silver. That is what I had in mind when I wrote the bolded. I didn't want to make this about how the administration's policies effect us.

tryinghard

Wed, Jan 10 2018, 7:58 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Trump today stated that the US Constitutional protections of the press / First Amendment are "a sham and a disgrace, and do not represent American values."

Uh, no, he didn't. He said the LIBEL LAWS are a sham and a disgrace. Big difference.

amother

Silver

Wed, Jan 10 2018, 8:23 pm

tryinghard wrote:

Uh, no, he didn't. He said the LIBEL LAWS are a sham and a disgrace. Big difference.

Oh please do explain the big difference. (hint: the first amendment limits their effectiveness - to nearly nothing).

amother

Plum

Wed, Jan 10 2018, 11:33 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

I know someone who was very glad that she was in the US when she fell ill instead of her birth country, which was great for preventative and maintenance care, but had long waiting lines and age rationing for acute, critical care.

I just read that thousands of dollars are needed for the Azan family because the surgeries they require isn't all covered by insurance. And that's when already paying for insurance.

I'm almost certain that it would be covered by universal healthcare. And even if not, it goes to show that the insurance doesn't always leave people with more options.

I still don't understand how anyone would look at universal healthcare as a disadvantage.

*This doesn't go to say that US doesn't have other advantages, but there ARE definitely areas where other countries make life much more sustainable for middle and lower class folk.

Mommyg8

Thu, Jan 11 2018, 12:04 am

amother wrote:

Iow, Sweden is doing well because of its earlier free-market policies, and *despite* the more recent socialist tilt

One of the reasons that the Scandinavian countries have a higher quality of life is because they're homogeneous nations. America is a melting pot with so many different nationalities - it just makes it harder for everyone to get along. They also try to keep out of international politics, which the US does not have the luxury of doing.

As for the blacks... do you know why there were so many more slaves in the US? The slaves who went to Central and South America were literally worked to death, and only US slaves stayed alive... check your history.

amother

Silver

Thu, Jan 11 2018, 12:18 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

who said anything here about blacks?.... how did we get there?

imasoftov

Thu, Jan 11 2018, 3:55 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

As for the blacks... do you know why there were so many more slaves in the US? The slaves who went to Central and South America were literally worked to death, and only US slaves stayed alive... check your history.

I'm not sure I understand what point you're trying to make here.

Raisin

Thu, Jan 11 2018, 5:33 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Have you been to Scandinavia recently? I don't think that is the case anymore.

Raisin

Thu, Jan 11 2018, 5:42 am

amother wrote:

I live in the UK. We have our own embarrassments here what with the brexit mess and everything. But the saving grace is that let’s me hold my head up is that we haven’t been so stupid as to elect a Donald Trump.

You’re right, Marina, the whole of Europe (with perhaps the exception of countries like Poland and Hungary that are moving towards their own kind of atavistic authoritarian populism) is laughing about Trump and hoovering up his ludicrous tweets. But only half the time. The rest of the time we are just plain horrified that the US, a country which shares and in the past has been a beacon of our basic liberal (in the European sense, not the derogatory American, snowflake sense) values can have chosen such an unsuitable, unstable, and dangerous idiot to lead - yes - the most powerful country in the world.

If Trump makes the kind of massive geopolitical mistake that he seems to be capable of it’s not just America’s ‘enemies’ that will suffer, its Americans themselves and all of us too.

Remember, the present isn’t set in stone. The future may look very different. America will not continue to be the most powerful nation in the world unless it is led with wisdom, craft, intelligence, and integrity. China is coming up very fast behind you guys and sending out play school tweets about their evil trade policy is not the way to deal with it. ( let alone the fact that the minute Trump actual gets into the same room as another powerful leader he turns into jelly because he is so thrilled to find himself in the big boys club) I, personally, don’t want to live in a world dominated by China.

But with share prices in the US’s global reputation plummeting, a lot of other, particularly non European, countries are beginning to think that might not be too bad.

Imamothers - this stuff matters.

Why are you amother? I want to be friends! Wink

To be fair, Just after the Trump election, I was discussing with an american friend what was worse, Brexit or Trump, and she pointed out that at least Trump will be gone in 4 or 8 years, Brexit will still be haunting the UK and the rest of Europe for many more years to come.

I think the leadership system in the UK and other parts of Europe would not allow a Trump to come to power. Can you see Teresa May or Angela Merkel becoming president of the USA? Nope. They are not nearly good looking or charismatic enough. Ireland has a gay, mixed race PM now. Also unlikely to happen in the USA. Although I'm still baffled at Jeremy Corbyn but I hope he will never become PM. I still think with another leader Labour might have actually won the last election. Still,, take away his anti semitic leanings and he has got popular views, he is intelligent, so very different to Trump.

Culturedpearls

Thu, Jan 11 2018, 7:07 am

I haven’t read past page 2. Just my 2c as an Australian.
A Canadian pointed out paid maternity leave , vacation pay etc.
This kind of government interference in private business is what destroys an economy .
In Australia we need to keep a job for 12 months of parental pay (not pay salary) you want to know what that means to me as a business owner? I will not employ any woman of child bearing age because I cannot go train a new person (as I cannot just fire them after 12 months)!!! Who’s loosing out? The woman. The government did her no favours.
Vacation pay? Well here we have 4 weeks of paid vacation. Nice? Yes but as a boss you know what that means? The salary is less!!!
There’s no such thing as a free lunch.
Healthcare? Ok US system stinks but Canadian??? In Canada a dog can get a hip replacement faster than a person because you don’t have private healthcare!!!
In Australia we have national healthcare but we pay for it & those of us who want hip replacement pronto pay private insurance too.
USA is a leader of the democratic world. Perfect it’s not because it’s not a pure democracy.

PinkFridge

Thu, Jan 11 2018, 8:47 am

Culturedpearls wrote:

Chas v'shalom it should be a pure democracy. "It is a republic, madam, if you can keep it."
As far as my earlier post about someone who had an acute condition here vs. her home country: I don't know all the ins and outs of the finances, just that they were grateful to be here. Obviously my anecdote can't compare to anyone else's data.

amother

Smokey

Thu, Jan 11 2018, 10:08 am

Raisin wrote:

Have you been to Scandinavia recently? I don't think that is the case anymore.

Muslim immigration and asylum seekers are a huge problem, and countries are taking steps to reverse the trend, going so far as offering money for immigrants to leave.

Even so, Norway, for instance, is still around 97% white and 90% christian. Finland is 97% white.

The US is 80% white and 70% christian. It's not comparable.

amother

Copper

Thu, Jan 11 2018, 10:43 am

Culturedpearls wrote:

1. Canada's policies allows fathers to claim the benefit too, so you would need to discriminate against all men and women of potential new parentage:). Seriously though,statistical data disproves your theory that maternity protection policies disadvantages women of childbearing/ child raising age. In the early 90's, before Canada instituted it's maternity policies, the US and Canada had similar employment rates for women 25-54, about 77%. Currently, Canada's rate stands at 81% vs the US which has dropped to 74%.

2. There are many myths about how universal health care actually works. I think this has been clarified up thread. Universal healthcare means that every single citizen has access to excellent care by any facility/ doctor of their choice. Drugs are also heavily subsidized. If you want faster/ specialized treatment, you pay for it privately. As of 2016, 24 million Canadians (2/3 of the population) had supplementary health insurance policies. The industry spent 32.2 billion on health care in 2016. These policies are usually through the workplace and are cheap.

Fox

Thu, Jan 11 2018, 12:12 pm

OP, I'm not sure what you mean by a "Trump die-hard." Someone who voted for him and isn't wildly unhappy with his performance so far? Someone who isn't constantly yammering about how awful he is? Someone who isn't repeatedly adding little anti-Trump diatribes to every weather report? Former Obama voters?

I follow a tons of conservative outlets, blogs, commentators, etc., and I just don't see evidence of many "Trump die-hards." In fact, a lot of his supporters are currently raking him over the coals over possible DACA amnesty.

So I think you've introduced a bit of a straw man argument in the first place. Nevertheless, I'll attempt to answer the larger question lurking beneath.

No. I do not care what 99.9 percent of non-Americans think of U.S. policies or leadership. In fact, I am deeply suspicious when Europeans, in particular, approve of anything in the U.S.

Outside of professional historians, I have literally never encountered a non-American who has any understanding whatsoever of the history, geography, and cultural forces that butt heads in the U.S. They watch some news reports, meet a few Americans, and watch a ton of Friends and Seinfeld re-runs. They have no concept whatsoever of the physical size, geographic and cultural diversity, and just plain ol' bigness of the country -- and the different challenges that presents to governance and social policy. Yet they act as if watching a lot of American TV somehow makes them experts on the U.S.

No Maternity Leave for Your Mule
There is also a significant cultural difference: Europeans (including most Commonwealth nations) emerged from the feudal system which promoted a central authority with responsibility for the welfare of the population. In modern times, the feudal lord has been replaced by a hopefully-benign government, and the serfs are the citizens who are cared for.

Americans, by contrast, want as little care-taking by powerful entities as possible. "Here's 40 acres and a mule. Best of luck to you," is more in line with their ideal lifestyle.

There are pluses and minuses to both of these cultural paradigms. Having the government provide you with more benefits means not only higher taxes, but more importantly, having the government making a lot of decisions about your life. Keeping the government away from your personal business means you keep more of your money and make your own decisions, but you and your mule are on your own!

The "We're #1" Mentality
This is a source of enormous misunderstanding. Americans are hyper-patriotic and wear their patriotism on their sleeves. This is obviously annoying to the rest of the world. However, it is not a logical argument; it is more like PinkFridge said up-thread, finding chein in your hometown. It is the equivalent of cheering for your local sports team.

In fact, Americans find it a little odd that non-Americans seem so apathetic about their own countries. Most of us have no difficulty reconciling the idea that every country is the best in the world. We expect Italians to believe that Italy is the greatest country in the world and Brazilians to believe that Brazil is the greatest country in the world.

BTW, this is not a new phenomenon corresponding to the U.S.'s 20th century dominance. It was noted by both Alexis de Tocqueville and Oscar Wilde.

The proper response, when an American claims that the U.S. is the best country in the world, is not to pull long faces and cite statistics about lyme disease, but to treat the occasion like a summer camp assembly:

"Woo hoo! Go Canada!"
"Rockin' it Down Under"
"Yay! Uzbekistan!"
"Let's hear it, Burkina Faso!"
"West Sudan can't be beat!"

This kind of boosterish display pleases Americans inordinately -- it's as if we've now exchanged social pleasantries and everyone can move along. You may balk at pleasing us by participating in this drama, but it does serve the function of shutting us up.

mommy3b2c

Thu, Jan 11 2018, 12:18 pm

Fox wrote:

Omg! I’m crying from laughing so hard. And as I mentioned earlier in the thread. I have no problem if Canadians and Chileans and Uzbekistanians think their country is the best in the world. They just shouldn’t knock my country! And act like I’m some kind of idiot for being “brainwashed” into thinking my country is the best.

amother

Copper

Thu, Jan 11 2018, 2:06 pm

Thank you Fox! Your explanation was enlightening, but I think you're oversimplifying.

I'll explain using two types of parents as an example.

#1. They adore their children and always tell them that they are the best and absolutely amazing! They recognize that their children have weak points and try to help them better themselves.

#2.They adore their children and always tell them that they are the best kids in the world. They also frequently share this information with other parents in their social circle. When others such as teachers try to express their concern regarding an issue of any kind, they lash out. They deny that there is a problem, blame others, or try to make this about the teacher's lack of expertise.

I have expressed my admiration for American patriotism up thread. I appreciate that it is essential in creating and then preserving a sense of unity in a country with a diverse population. When it resembles parents #1, it evokes a smile. When it begins to resemble parents #2, it becomes irritatingly annoying and makes the patriot seem illogical and blinded.

Raisin

Thu, Jan 11 2018, 2:27 pm

Fox wrote:

Oh, come on. I don't think my birthplace, the UK, is "the best country in the world". But its not the worst country either. It is a wonderful country with many wonderful attributes, and probably one of the more desirable places to live in the world, as is the USA. I'm proud of the contribution the UK has made to the world in many areas. Also they have done some truly horrible things. And some really stupid ones as well. (exhibit 1: brexit)

I think the USA is a wonderful country but to go on about being the land of the free sounds idiotic to anyone who has a basic knowledge of slavery and civil rights. It has only truly been the land of the free since the 60s or 70s when black people were finally treated like human beings. That makes it about as free as many 3rd world countries.

Nothing wrong with being patriotic. But this is not an Independence day party. It is a discussion.

amother

Plum

Thu, Jan 11 2018, 2:45 pm

mommy3b2c wrote:

We were asked our opinion and answered. Why is stating some of the disadvantages called knocking your country?

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