Did you raise your cleaning lady?

observer

Tue, Jan 16 2018, 2:08 pm

Amarante wrote:

Who said anything about tipping a cleaning woman?

The original post complained because I tipped other people generously and people have discussed minimum wages in terms of delivery people.

If I can't afford to tip someone what is the acceptable rate for services - I.e. delivery or eating in a restaurant, then I can't afford that experience and I forego it. When I couldn't afford a cleaning woman, I didn't have a cleaning woman - end of story. Now I can afford one and I recognize that it's something that I am lucky to be able to afford. I also recognize that most people I have interacted with in the world don't have cleaning help. I made do and that's what most people do - they make do and recognize what is a necessity and what is a luxurious discretionary expense and are grateful that they can afford it.

You said anything about tipping, but it seems that you may be using the word "tipping" to mean "paying".

Amarante wrote:

And with all due respect but many people lead busy lives and would love to not have to clean their house when they come home from work or whatever, but they don't because they feel they can't afford it. So they adjust and they let things go or figure out a system. It is really only on this website have I learned the frum lifestyle somehow turns what are considered to be luxuries necessities. If you can afford something, that's wonderful but don't complain that paying your help a living wage - or the minimum wage - is taking food out of your children's mouths. Or that other people paying a living wage to their cleaning woman are making things difficult because then you have to pay a living wage.

Come on, let's not argue that it's more needed in families that have 5-7-10-14 kids, which is basically unheard of in other communities... Of course everyone's busy, but we're not talking about "not wanting to clean" here, you know... Between caring for the kids, cooking, carpooling, dr appts, etc... multiplied by the amount of kids we have, I think it's pretty obvious why we use cleaning help more than other circles, even if we don't have extra cash. As long as we can pay our cleaning help the going rate, no need to go overboard.

shyshira

Tue, Jan 16 2018, 2:42 pm

Squishy wrote:

I got the misinformation off the government website.

My thoughts are that it is immaterial because of the supply and the fact that the illegals themselves are not righteous. They break so many laws that I don't see them looking to have any enforced.

Immaterial is not a synonym for "does not apply".

What actually happens vs what is legal are clearly different things.. but the fact is there no concept that 'in situations where there is an abundance of supply - minimum wages aren't applicable. I'd argue that likely the abundance of supply is what triggers a need for a minimum wage to begin with.

The government website with the minimum wages.

https://labor.ny.gov/workerpro......shtm

amother

Denim

Tue, Jan 16 2018, 3:14 pm

I can't believe how little people pay their cleaning people and how people haven't given a raise in 5 years. Would you stay in a job that you haven't had a raise in 5 years?

My cleaning lady has gone from $13 to $20 over the time she has been with me. (Several years). She is American born, not that I think it makes a difference, but may make her less susceptible to being exploited.

I'm seriously a little horrified by this thread.

amother

Periwinkle

Tue, Jan 16 2018, 3:18 pm

amother wrote:

That's quite a large percentage of a raise. if I got that percentage of a raise, I wouldnt complain lol

unexpected

Tue, Jan 16 2018, 3:31 pm

amother wrote:

I'm seriously a little horrified by all the women who think we are exploiting our cleaning help. We pay decent money for the work and we get what we pay for. If the prevailing practice from the Hispanic community would be to come in legally, pay their taxes, be self supporting and not drain our economy then guess what? There would be less help available and they would be able to charge more money. However, regardless of that dynamic, most of the cleaning help I have employed seem to be culturally unambitious and perfectly happy to work at minimally paid jobs while mooching off the government. I'm not sure if they are exploited or exploiters- but you can probably make that argument about anyone.

unexpected

Tue, Jan 16 2018, 3:39 pm

Amarante wrote:

Not to put words in Squishy's mouth who is more than capable LOL

but I interpreted her post as meaning that whatever the "law" is has no impact on Monsey/Rockland County because the community doesn't follow many laws so why would adherence to minimum wage be different.

You mentioned earlier that amother seemed hostile. I beg to differ. You are the hostile one, claiming that all of Rockland County are lawbreakers and that our cleaning ladies are victims of economic exploitation. Your interpretation of squishy's comment is complete lashon hara and not funny

SixOfWands

Tue, Jan 16 2018, 3:43 pm

unexpected wrote:

You do understand that you're a racist, I take it. I also take it that you don't care.

Somewhere between 85% and 90% of the Latino population of the US are citizens or legal immigrants. But I guess as soon as you see brown skin, you see "illegal."

Even undocumented aliens pay taxes. About $12 billion of taxes every single year.

And undocumented aliens are not entitled to received TANF, SNAP (food stamps), Medicaid, CHIP, or most other government benefits. (They may received WIC, and assistance for acute medical problems.)

How would you feel if we substituted Lakewood Jews, or Kiryat Yoel Jews, or Brooklyn Jews in there. How many of those men don't bother to get jobs. (Don't tell me they're in kollel, outsiders see that as lazy.) How many families receive assistance?

Paying people less than a livable wage is exploitation. Period.

unexpected

Tue, Jan 16 2018, 4:02 pm

Idk about you but everyone of my cleaning ladies has been illegal and receives food stamps and Medicaid. My current cleaning help told me she looked into going legal and it wasn't worth it for her. Her daughter is American educated and prefers cleaning houses for cash, rather than going to school and getting a more well paid job. Neither of them pay taxes and they are not ashamed of it. And truthfully, I don't really care. If our country makes it easy for them I'm perfectly happy for them to come in and make out system work for them. But I refuse to accept that I am exploiting them, and if that makes me a racist- too bad. And, ftr, I am one of those brown skinned people who sometimes engender uncomfortable behavior...

simcha2

Tue, Jan 16 2018, 4:08 pm

unexpected wrote:

There isn't really a path to "go legal" otherwise that is what all the people being threatened with deportation would do.

tichellady

Tue, Jan 16 2018, 4:15 pm

unexpected wrote:

You must be misunderstanding something because undocumented immigrants don’t get Medicaid or food stamps.

SixOfWands

Tue, Jan 16 2018, 4:23 pm

simcha2 wrote:

There isn't really a path to "go legal" otherwise that is what all the people being threatened with deportation would do.

There are a few ways, but they don't apply to most people.

But usually, you will have to leave the US for a number of years before applying to return.

Jorge Garcia lived in the US for 30 years, since he arrived as a child. He was married to a US citizen. Had US citizen kids. No criminal record. Landscaper. Paid taxes. And was deported. Cannot return for at least 10 years.

https://www.freep.com/story/ne.....6001/

Its not that easy.

amother

Seagreen

Tue, Jan 16 2018, 4:27 pm

cnc wrote:

I wonder if unexpected is mixing up working illegally(off the books) and being an illegal immigrant.
Her cleaning help may be a legal citizen that is working illegally.

Her cleaning lady, it seems, works in several households - and could be deemed as sole proprietorship, rather than an employee. In which case - the books are hers, and if she's not keeping them, or reporting her income, that's her problem. She's not working illegally - she's evading taxes (which of course is illegal).

octopus

Tue, Jan 16 2018, 4:29 pm

My cleaning help comes between 30-45 minutes late almost every time. I never say a word, and pay her the same. She never, ever stays late, but she does a good job and is an honest, pleasant woman. I will not offer her a raise because technically I'm paying her more per hour because she comes late all the time. I do pay her if I cancel on her, but I do not pay if she cancels on me. She gets a holiday bonus once a year. If she asked for a raise, I would cut her hours or not have her altogether. I don't think she would do that as I'm very easygoing and I have her for the whole day.

amother

Seagreen

Tue, Jan 16 2018, 4:33 pm

octopus wrote:

Factoring the numbers of hours she actually works, and the total paid for the day - are you paying her 2018 minimum wage? The raise isn't something she is supposed to ask for - its your obligation to pay it.

33055

Tue, Jan 16 2018, 5:05 pm

tichellady wrote:

You must be misunderstanding something because undocumented immigrants don’t get Medicaid or food stamps.

We go through this on many threads. Illegals get free medical and dental care at least in my county. Indeed, we have medical tourism where people fly here for free medical and dental work. This is one of the reasons my county taxes are the second highest in the nation. I have said this before that it is unfair for local taxpayers to pay for the illegals. The burden should be spread across the nation.

The illegals come here and further exploit the local taxpayers by cramming so many people into housing that it is unsafe for our firemen. They illegally have multiple families sharing space which is against code. Speak up against this and you get branded a racist. Who pays for all the extra water and municipal services? It is once again the local taxpayers.

The local taxpayers pay to educate their children. ESL is expensive besides the fact it doesn't work. Their children get Medicaid, etc which the local taxpayers pay for.

amother

Gold

Tue, Jan 16 2018, 5:39 pm

amother wrote:

I'm pretty stunned by this attitude.
Assuming that a housekeeper is in this country illegally (most are where I live) and not reporting income (again, the norm where I live) why on earth should any demand be placed on the employer?
This is absurdity. I'm normally a very law-abiding citizen but no way I'd be bullied into such a situation.
In any case, it's not going to work out as intended. All of the subpar housekeepers (and there are quite a lot of them out there) are not going to end up with a "living wage". They are going to end up unemployed with no wage. The market is what the market is and trying to outsmart it never goes well.

33055

Tue, Jan 16 2018, 5:52 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Enforcing the immigration laws is very good for black and other disenfranchised Americans. Garcia was told in 2009 he would have to leave. Yet he was here for 9 more years! You need a cutoff because everyone has a sad story. Billions have a sad story. You shouldn't gain legal status because you illegally lived here a long time.

We need to take care of our own vulnerable Americans. This includes black and Latino workers. This is our responsibility.

I am so glad that black unemployment is the lowest are ever. Existing workers don't want to compete with more illegals. That includes the illegals already here.

Dreamers are a net loss financially to that country and dreamer aged immigrants are 250 times more like to commit crimes like rape and murder. They are much more likely to be in gangs. They are not the peaceful educated population they are pictured as. Less than 2% are college educated.