Did you raise your cleaning lady?

keym

Wed, Jan 17 2018, 9:29 am

Notsobusy wrote:

Squishy has been very vocal about such frum people also.

She is very vocal about those who collect welfare fraudulently. But she has never said anything about those Jewish people who came to America from Europe Soviet Union Etc under fraudulent conditions. I'm sure everyone here knows someone who came under fraudulent conditions. Escaping pre or post war Europe, or post Iron Curtain, or Arabic Country immigrants.
Note I am not talking about the current immigrants illegal and dreamers who come from Israel. Israel is not a dangerous country and they are here just to make a little extra money. I am talking about the current Jewish illegal immigrants and dreamers from the former Soviet Union the Soviet Union black and other areas like that the Arabic countries in which it was it is dangerous or poverty-stricken to live there and they come to America illegally.

I feel greatful to my great grandfather (or something) who came to America through on paper only marriage and subsequent divorce that allows me to be an American citizen.

33055

Wed, Jan 17 2018, 9:36 am

Raisin wrote:

I know lots of frum people who came to the country fraudulently, especially in the older generation, who had to lie to get out of Europe or the Soviet Union. Some countries are dangerous places to live and you need to lie to escape.

Lots of frum people lie to get services and don't pay taxes, ignore local laws, and even have children without getting civilly married.

As I said, there are billions of sad stories. We can't save everyone. We need to start with the ones who are here. Illegal immigrants steal opportunities from our poorest.

My immigrant grandfathers were not ideal citizens. They came through legally though. Once grandfather was connected.

Raisin

Wed, Jan 17 2018, 9:40 am

Squishy wrote:

If the only way you could save your family from a dangerous country were to lie, would you? I would, 100%.

PAMOM

Wed, Jan 17 2018, 9:44 am

I’m also waiting for Squshy’s sources.
I definitely think there’s a problem with our immigration laws being enforced (and even Israelis wanting to make “a little money” take someone else’s jobs) but I would also like to see sources about illegal residents getting free medical and dental care, unless at a community clinic where the doctors donate their time. Children born here are citizens and entitled to benefits that all US citizens can get.
And —again—while I think we have a problem that we need to address, I’m appalled at comments that appear to show a real lack of humanity. We’re not the only ones created in Gd’s image.

amother

Indigo

Wed, Jan 17 2018, 9:48 am

mommy3b2c wrote:

I guess that would only work if all the cleaning lady does is bathrooms, mopping, vacuuming...

If she’s doing laundry, ironing, cooking, childcare, etc... which many cleaning women do, it’s impossible to pay like that.

My cleaning lady, comes a couple times a week, on those days she does whatever I need her to do. If I happen to leave her the baby, then she is taking care of him too, so everything will take longer. That’s why such a system would never work. I just pay her by the hour.

What you’re describing is a housekeeper who works for you almost full time.

33055

Wed, Jan 17 2018, 9:55 am

keym wrote:

We cross posted. My grandfathers coming here was great for me, but it wasn't so great for others who were already here. I would argue that the grandfather who was connected didn't share the values with larger society.

BH Jews stressed education. I grew up when Jews were the top students. It was assumed from the earliest that you would be a top tier professional.

33055

Wed, Jan 17 2018, 10:01 am

Raisin wrote:

If the only way you could save your family from a dangerous country were to lie, would you? I would, 100%.

I would. That being said, you need to look at the aggregate. When you have millions lying, you overwelm the resources.

Remember billions of people live in dangerous countries.

We can absorb a family. We can absorb 100 families. We cannot continue to absorb the amount coming in without hurting our most vulnerable.

33055

Wed, Jan 17 2018, 10:10 am

watergirl wrote:

I was thinking about this before you posted it. We all know that many frum communities have this shtick also. Where most people are paid under the table, businesses practice pay discrimination regularly (men get paid the most, then married women, then single “girls”, etc), and the points that you mentioned as well. Also language - we all know that many people dont learn English in many schools and dont get a basic education. There are theads upon threads on here about it. And organizations working to stop the poor level of education - which enjoys funding from the state! KJ has one of the lowest poverty levels in the country and among the highest percentage of govt benefits, yet they enjoy a very high standard of living. How?

There is an “us” vs “them” mentality. Double standards. Sure, some of “them” commit violent crime. And yes, most of “them” are nice and hard working. Can the same be said of “us”? We commit crime also. Some violent and yet usually unreported because its “mesira”. Want to talk about how “they” cram 11 kids into small apartments and mess up traffic flow, like was mentioned upthread? Wasnt the same complaint made against developers in Monsey who built huge multi family homes with either no permit, or a permit which was given due to heavy bribes?

I’m just thinking that there seem to be parallels.

There are a lot of parallels between certain frum Jews and other inner city minorities. The difference is that inner city residents and frum Jews are our problems. While illegal immigrants only become our problem if we don't enforce the law.

Many inner city blacks do not share common values with larger society. They have higher rates of incarceration, drugs, prostitution. If we start controlling immigration, we give them opportunities. We give other Americans similar opportunities not to be dependent.

33055

Wed, Jan 17 2018, 10:11 am

PAMOM wrote:

Honestly, I am surprised no one googled this. I can't post the underlying PDF file.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-g.....port/

I posted links prior to this of the free clinics in in rockland County.

I don't lack humanity. You lack a clear understanding of limited resources and the effects of policy.

We don't have unlimited resources to help the world. We can't help millions of immigrants without hurting our weakest. Black unemployment is the lowest level ever! Unemployment for Hispanic workers both legal and illegal are at low rates. Those that refuse to understand that big business wants a cheap labor source and democrats want uneducated dependent voters lack compassion for our existing poor.

Last edited by 33055 on Wed, Jan 17 2018, 10:19 am; edited 1 time in total

keym

Wed, Jan 17 2018, 10:18 am

Squishy wrote:

Ok. So practically, you are pro or at least neutral to Oriental illegal immigration because they ostensibly value higher education and professionalism, but you are ant Latino immigration.
And you also arent stereotyping or a racist at all.

33055

Wed, Jan 17 2018, 10:31 am

keym wrote:

Thank you for recognizing that I am not racist.

I am pro immigration for those that help our economy. I like a merit system like Australia and Canada.

This has nothing to do with racism. The best educated and most productive immigrants should have priority. If they turn out to be Chinese or Indian or Spanish - great. I also think we do a disservice to ourselves when we can people like the Chinese from getting spots in the best colleges simply because they are Chinese.

Also by accepting better educated immigrants, we protect Americans who are not as educated from competing for the same jobs.

Mommyg8

Wed, Jan 17 2018, 10:36 am

Squishy wrote:

Thank you, Squishy, that was very well said.

33055

Wed, Jan 17 2018, 10:59 am

shyshira wrote:

just to bring this full circle - minimum wage laws are meant to protect Americans from competing with illegal immigrants who are willing to do the same work for less pay.

But they won't protect the workers without clamping down on the cash economy simultaneously. We need a level playing field to protect our poor.

People, including Professor Twerski, love to tout how smart chassidish businessman are without a good secular education. Again, we need a level playing field with everyone playing by the rules. We are not smarter because we game a system.

shyshira

Wed, Jan 17 2018, 11:21 am

Squishy wrote:

All these things are true.. and I've enjoyed reading your justifications for not paying minimum wage.

tryinghard

Wed, Jan 17 2018, 11:33 am

shyshira wrote:

All these things are true.. and I've enjoyed reading your justifications for not paying minimum wage.

Nobody on your side of this debate seems to be willing to address the following: Other than a full-time housekeeper, someone who works hourly in a domestic setting, (possibly even "a few days a week" as was posted upthread, and was denigrated because this is "almost full-time) is not an employee - they are a service provider or an independent contractor - and neither of those have any relevance to minimum wage.

simcha2

Wed, Jan 17 2018, 11:37 am

tryinghard wrote:

I'm not sure you're correct. This is from the department of labor website. See the bolded.

To whom does the minimum wage apply?
The minimum wage law (the FLSA) applies to employees of enterprises that have annual gross volume of sales or business done of at least $500,000. It also applies to employees of smaller firms if the employees are engaged in interstate commerce or in the production of goods for commerce, such as employees who work in transportation or communications or who regularly use the mails or telephones for interstate communications. Other persons, such as guards, janitors, and maintenance employees who perform duties which are closely related and directly essential to such interstate activities are also covered by the FLSA. It also applies to employees of federal, state or local government agencies, hospitals and schools, and it generally applies to domestic workers.

33055

Wed, Jan 17 2018, 11:43 am

shyshira wrote:

All these things are true.. and I've enjoyed reading your justifications for not paying minimum wage.

I think you are totally clueless to pick ONE and only ONE law that you would like followed.

Why shouldn't employers pay their portion of FICA, unemployment insurance, check legal residency, and file documentation with the IRS for their illegal immigrant house cleaners? Why aren't you after those rule breakers?

FTR I don't hire anyone directly. And I could care less if they made a dollar more next year.

Most people who aren't in that position. It is unfair to inflict that burden on them. The wrong doers should not benefit from minimum wage protections until they pay taxes. I would go a step further and say they shouldn't have jobs until they can prove they are legal.

You can't enforce only one tiny fraction of the laws of the land.