Davening and saying tehlim

amother

White

Sat, Jan 13 2018, 6:24 pm

I often see here that when people see a sad post, whether a health issue or personal crisis, they will respond that they will daven for a yeshua for thst person. I'm trying to get some clarity on this. I also often see people saying that davening is about creating and reinforcing a relationship with hashem-not that he will in any way respond the way we hope for. Which is it? Does davening help on a real and practical level? Meaning for example that woman who daven find shidduchim more tan woman who don't daven. Families that daven experience fewer tragedies than families that don't. Is this the case? Doesn't seem so. And if it's not, why do we respond to someone else's suffering that we will daven for the person if it really doesn't help that person but only serves to help connect the one davening with hashem?

chicco

Sat, Jan 13 2018, 7:13 pm

First of all, we have a strong yesod that Hashem never ignores a tefillah- even if it is not mikayim the way that you intend. This in itself is valuable.

Secondly, davening expands our awareness of Hashem and consequently our relationship with Him. This shift changes our reality. Hopefully it changes it enough that whatever we are struggling with is no longer relevant in our new reality.

chicco

Sat, Jan 13 2018, 7:32 pm

I don't really know how our davening for others affects their situation, but according to the principles I mention above-
1. It can't hurt/ is definitely mekayum in some way.
2. It definitely affects us for the good.
3. While the one being davened for has to be in the 'right place' to receive a yeshua from Hashem, if they need outside help to get to that place, we are doing what we can to help them get there.

We are also a nation that looks out and cares for others. Even if our particular davening doesn't directly affect the person, the efforts we make on behalf of the other person makes a roshem on Hashem and how he looks at klal yisroel at large. Maybe that in itself is a zechus for the person.

amother

Bronze

Sat, Jan 13 2018, 7:39 pm

amother wrote:

why do we respond to someone else's suffering that we will daven for the person

It is natural for most non-damaged people to want to help alleviate the suffering of others. So if you tell me you have not had a decent dinner all week long because your paycheck isn't coming til the end of the month, I might very well offer you a gift card at your local market so you can purchase food. However, if you tell me of a situation that I cannot directly provide for , I will offer to daven because I want to alleviate your suffering and I have been raised to believe Hashem is our Father and we can talk to him as we would talk to our father. So I talk to Hashem and say, ''please, can you help this woman''.
In other words, if there's any practical help I can offer I offer it.
If there is no practical help I can offer, I hand it over to Hashem.

Surrendered

Sat, Jan 13 2018, 8:08 pm

When a child wants something from his parents, he needs to verbally ask for it.
Hahem knows what we want or need, but it's much more powerful when we ask for our needs by Davening and praying. And iyh, hopefully we'll receive what we ask for. That being said: Hashem who KNOWS us better than we know ourselves, "knows what's ultimately good for us". With HIS infinite kindness, will only give it to us "IF, what we ask for is good for us and for our growth", though it doesn't always seem to be good in our eyes and we don't understand HIS ways... we all have a different tachlis and journey for our life, if it will help us achieve our Tachlis, Hashem will give us what we want.

amother

White

Sat, Jan 13 2018, 8:41 pm

Surrendered wrote:

Thank you for your response. I think it is similar to the responses above. Hashem is our father. Of course when we are in need we ask our father. Makes sense. The issue for me is that I'm a very bottom line person. I don't think we can rationally say that hashem is our father in the same way we think of our biological father, because he isn't. A relationship with anyone has to be based on understanding. If a person is in need and is suffering they can certainly depend on their parents to help in any way they can. We have no understanding whatsoever of how hashem works, why he does certain things, why people suffer, what he wants from us to alleviate suffering or anything else. It is impossible to compare a relationship with hashem to that of a person where we know what the person wants from us and how they will respond to our actions. Hashem, to us humans is completely unpredictable.

HealthCoach

Sat, Jan 13 2018, 9:22 pm

People are supposed to believe that their tefila will make a difference. Emuna makes the tfila more effective.

Surrendered

Sat, Jan 13 2018, 9:22 pm

You're absolutely right with that, We cannot fathom Hashems power, He's much more than a basar vadom. Though we as Yidden, we are Maaminim bnei Maaminim, believers. We know that Hashem knows us well and knows what's really for our ultimate benefit in life.

HealthCoach

Sat, Jan 13 2018, 9:25 pm

The Baal Shem tov said that you can daven for something, and if it would not have been good for you, it can become good for you.

Last edited by HealthCoach on Sat, Jan 13 2018, 9:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Jade

Sat, Jan 13 2018, 9:25 pm

Deleted

Last edited by amother on Sat, Jan 13 2018, 9:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Jade

Sat, Jan 13 2018, 9:25 pm

You need to learn more on The power of prayer, Emuna and Bitochon. Via hotlines, books or live shiurim- to understand this more in detail.

chicco

Sat, Jan 13 2018, 9:27 pm

While you are correct that we don't have an insight into Hashem's cheshbonos, we do know certain rules.
Chief among those is:

Everything He does is in our best interests.

Does a five year old understand why he parents don't take her to Disneyland? Not let her eat endless amounts of candy? Why they make her go to bed on time?

Usually not. But that same child does appreciate that her parents love and care about her. Being a parent doesn't always mean swooping in and making the pain go away.

HealthCoach

Sat, Jan 13 2018, 9:28 pm

I recommend the books praying with fire, and it’s all in your mind. If you can spend more, dina Friedman’s power series course is unreal

HealthCoach

Sat, Jan 13 2018, 9:30 pm

Hashem can put someone in a situation in their best interests so that they will pray and connect. Then he can take the problem away.

amother

White

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 12:00 am

Mitzvah Giraffe wrote:

People are supposed to believe that their tefila will make a difference. Emuna makes the tfila more effective.

What does it mean "supposed to believe"? We are human. If I tell you to that you are supposed to believe that today is Wednesday you would respond that intellectually your mind is telling you otherwise and you can't believe that. Let me ask you a yes or no question: Do woman who daven find shidduchim more than woman who don't daven, and do woman who daven have healthy children more than woman who don't daven? To me, the answer is simply no. So how am I "supposed to believe" that the answers to the above questions is yes? Do you honestly believe the answers are yes?

amother

White

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 12:27 am

Mitzvah Giraffe wrote:

Hashem can put someone in a situation in their best interests so that they will pray and connect. Then he can take the problem away.

[u]

Ahhh, so in the end you believe hashem IS a vending machine....When we daven, he is more likely to take the problems away.

mandksima

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 1:44 am

I have learned to see the world in a totally different perspective so it makes perfect sense to me.

We, as human beings, are all connected and can positively or negatively affect each other through not just our actions but through our thoughts and energy we give off. When we think positively about a person and daven for them, we are opening up a vessel for blessing which may not have existed before. I heard something a while back that sounded so different from what I always learned but ties into this. I totally forgot where I read this but I can try to look it up. Hashem tells us that we are the ones able to help a rasha be able to do teshuva. Someone in this lower world must have an ayin hatov (see something good in him) on that person in order for the gates of teshuva in the upper world to open. If no one is seeing any goodness in him, his ability for teshuva is hampered. Once someone on Earth sees tov in someone else, Hashem then can allow Himself to see the tov in them. He is waiting for us by His divine design. This is how He created the world, with our ability to be partners in daily creation. We are constantly changing the face of the universe with our actions as well as thoughts. So, this can help us understand why praying for others actually changes the fate of others and isn't only a growing experience for us. In the opposite way, this is how ayin hara works as seeing something negative in someone else, opens up a judgement on them and you when it would not have existed before. Hashem wants us to open our souls and cry to Him, for ourselves, for our families, for total strangers. We acknowledge Hashem as the creator and how He controls the intricacies of the universe when we daven for others. Out goes our ego which tends to think we are the ones who make our lives great and we deserve the goodness in our lives because we worked hard on it. When we think that way, it is easy to think, well, if the other person really deserved it, Hashem would help them automatically so why should I care? They must not deserve it, etc.. Then, we fail to realize that Hashem put them in our life somehow for US. For us to find a way to let go of our ego, and feel for a person in order to heal us as well as them. Hashem created the world because of Chessed. So, chessed, such as davening for and helping others, is a building block of daily renewed creation.

Now, it IS a growing experience for us as well. We, as humans, are connected and also in a different special way as Jews. When we daven for each other, we unite ourselves and lift ourselves out of a mostly physical existence into a more spiritual one. We remember that each of us is like another organ in the same body. There would be no benefit in wishing one area of our body harm as it directly affects the health of the whole body. So, hating someone would be totally counterproductive in us and loving someone, which is created when we daven for someone else, even someone we have never met and only have the name of, can heal even ourselves as we are all part of one connected body. We are not meant to be in this world only to perform mitzvot to help ourselves and add onto our own personal point chart. We need to connect on a deep level with everyone who comes in contact with us. There is no such thing as someone passing us by without Hashem orchestrating it. We are meant to have some way of elevating ourselves through helping someone or learning something from every interaction. Once we unite ourselves in this way, constantly connecting with others, we grow a sensitivity which wasn't there before.

These might be very strange ideas for some. It's a deeper way of seeing the world. It helps me to not be jealous when I see the world in this light. If I see some part of my body is ill, I tend to it, not ignore it and think that part of my body must have deserved to get sick. I see it as a whole. If I see some part of my body seems like everything is going great and another part seems lacking, I don't feel proud of the part that's doing great and look down at the part that is suffering. We are all one. Hashem is one and we are all part of Him. He is waiting for us to connect, unite and return to seeing the glory of Him in the near future. Big tzaddikim do this constantly, they feel everyone's pain and joy as if it is their own. We can all strive to do this in smaller ways until it becomes a standard way of living life. This is part of our personal geula. We change our destiny ourselves.

chicco

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 7:49 am

Mandksima that was amazing!

amother

White

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 8:05 am

mandksima wrote:

Interesting perspective. The issue that I have with this line of thinking is that it flies in the face of practical reality of what we actually see. When we think positively about someone "we open up a vessel of blessing for them that wasn't there before". Again, really??? We just don't see that and can't honestly apply that logic. Of course I can memorize it and repeat it and if I say it enough times I might start believing it, but you logic implies that at it's core, people who are davened for have more blessings than others. This is factually not true. Health, parnasah, and good marriages are not exclusive to people who daven and are davened for. In fact, there is very little correlation between having these things and davening. I feel bad saying this as I was raised a frum person. I'm just saying what appears obvious to me. The only thing I can possibly accept is that we don't understand ANYTHING about tefillah and hashem. If so, I can't really appreciate something on a meaningful level that I don't understand whatsoever.

southernbubby

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 8:06 am

chicco wrote:

Mandksima that was amazing!

Very true but I hope that she is not limiting her influence to this website and her immediate circle of people but that she is spreading these words to others, if she has a way to do that. She could find various ways to teach people these wise concepts.