Proof of Hashem and Torah for Children

amother

Brown

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 4:04 pm

It really depends on her personality and where her questions are coming from.

You may want to consider Permission to Believe and Permission to Receive (don't remember which one you're supposed to read first) - both by Rabbi Lawrence Keleman. They may be a bit too advanced for a 12 year old, hard to say depends on the kid. I will tell you, I know a lot of people who were transformed by these books. I will also tell you that I had a lot of questions, and I didn't find them helpful at all.

As far as questions regarding christianity, you may want to get her osme anti-missionary / da mah lehashiv books / pamphlets / guides, I don't have any specific recommendations though.

Really, the things that helped me most around that age (well, maybe a bit older), was talking to rabbis. I found rabbis who were teachers were usually the best - I didn't need some big talmid chacham or brilliant posek, just someone relatable who was very knowledgeable and had a good rapport with the teenage set. Also, a rabbi who was well-versed in anti-missionary materials was helpful too, but that wasn't a minimum criteria for me. Our neighbor (not the anti-missionary rabbi) was actually the gemara teacher at the boys' yeshiva high school and he spent a lot of time talking with me and answering my questions - I give him partial credit him for my staying frum at the end of the day.

amother

Chocolate

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 5:53 pm

tichellady wrote:

There is no proof. I think it’s important to be honest about that.

If you have no helpful comments for this conversation you shouldn't be a part of it.

Because you have a belief that there is no proof doesn't mean there really isn't. It is important to be honest about that too.

amother

Green

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 6:24 pm

Logical proof d is that matan Torah was done before thousands of people.

Christianity was born by one individual who decided he was nominated by Gd.

I’d rather believe thousands of people who saw Hashemgiving the Torah than one person who made up a religion himself.

amother

Azure

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 6:58 pm

amother wrote:

So what's your conclusive, indisputable proof?

amother

Chocolate

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 7:17 pm

amother wrote:

So what's your conclusive, indisputable proof?

I know better than to discuss this topic on imamother so I'm not answering your question. Or even the OP for that matter.

I will just repeat that when someone asked for proof of something or any other type of information and you believe there isn't any, have the decency to stay out of the conversation.Control yourself from proselytizing for your beliefs and let others answer.

Mommyg8

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 7:23 pm

"Beyond a Reasonable Doubt" by Shmuel Waldman is a good starting point.

I honestly think that explaining Christianity is a very simple process. Those of us who read secular literature and are a bit more exposed pretty much do know the basics of that religion, so it's not too complicated to answer that.

And, thank you, amother chocolate, for your voice of sanity.

tichellady

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 7:56 pm

amother wrote:

I’m not prosletyzing anything. I was a kid who was always searching for proofs and never found any that made any sense . As an adult I understand that you don’t believe in Gd or a religion because of proofs. That’s just not how things work.

amother

Purple

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 8:29 pm

I think DD just wants to know more about confessionals and fatherly priests. I think it sounds comforting to her. I'm trying to explain to her that we don't need a middleman between us and hashem. Working on ourselves to be better people through tshuva is what hashem wants and not some meaningless hail marys.

amother

Magenta

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 8:48 pm

amother wrote:

sounds about right. The Hail Mary is a petition for Mary to pray (to G-d) on behalf of 'sinner' or 'sinners'. We believe in praying to Hashem directly. And every day in a minyan everyone davens for everyone else - and women do same in private prayers. We don't need "Mary's" help - we have a community and we take care of each other. We have tremendous strength in numbers.

that said - daughter should know that 'confessing' or telling someone when you did something wrong, or when someone did something wrong to you is important in itself. We don't have a special formula to 'absolve us' - but its important none-the-less to have someone to talk to when things are bothering you... and to talk.

amother

Azure

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 8:50 pm

tichellady wrote:

Ahhh. Don't tell them that. It's comforting for them to believe there is indisputable, undeniable evidence.

amother

Purple

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 8:52 pm

amother wrote:

Thank you I like what you wrote. Especially about having someone to talk to.

Mommyg8

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 8:56 pm

amother wrote:

Ahhh. Don't tell them that. It's comforting for them to believe there is indisputable, undeniable evidence.

While it's not actually possible to SEE G-d, and as you said there is no 100% proof, there certainly some very good arguments, definitely better than arguments for any of the alternatives. If you disagree with this statement, then you choose to be in denial.

amother

Dodgerblue

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 10:25 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Nope. If there were a perfect proof, everyone in the world would be a believer already. Hashem lets us grapple with doubt. And if you give a flimsy proof to a smart child, you'll do more harm than good.

Mommyg8

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 10:26 pm

amother wrote:

I'm sorry, but it's not flimsy proof at all. What are you talking about?

amother

Black

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 10:27 pm

Rabbi Daniel mechanic is amazing, and usually speaks to high school girls about these types of topics. Maybe see if he has shiurim online..

ETA: https://www.torahanytime.com/#.....48255

Listen to this.. you won't be sorry, rabbi mechanics amazing

amother

Dodgerblue

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 10:32 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I'm sorry, but it's not flimsy proof at all. What are you talking about?

None of the standard proofs is totally perfect. Some work perfectly for some people, but none stands up to rigorous argument. We don't have to go through them one by one. I think that's been done already.

It's fine to say, I believe because (insert favorite proof here) but at the end of the day it's a leap of faith.

amother

Black

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 10:33 pm

amother wrote:

.

Really, the things that helped me most around that age (well, maybe a bit older), was talking to rabbis. I found rabbis who were teachers were usually the best - I didn't need some big talmid chacham or brilliant posek, just someone relatable who was very knowledgeable and had a good rapport with the teenage set. Also, a rabbi who was well-versed in anti-missionary materials was helpful too, but that wasn't a minimum criteria for me. Our neighbor (not the anti-missionary rabbi) was actually the gemara teacher at the boys' yeshiva high school and he spent a lot of time talking with me and answering my questions - I give him partial credit him for my staying frum at the end of the day.

Same here. You need an open understanding rav. I doubt I would still be frum if not for a certain rav who encouraged me to ask and fight till I got an answer that I liked.