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Who is holier?

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Motek

Thu, Oct 21 2004, 4:43 pm

wondering: are those who are more mehader and/or more machmir more elevated than those who aren't?

Nechama

Thu, Oct 21 2004, 4:48 pm

Not the guy who beats his wife and kids.
Or ridicules others.
Or cheats in business.
etc.
There is a story about a elterer chosid who is still alive. And this happened in front of a bochur I personally know and he told me first hand.
He was a a farbrengen with bochurim and a plate of some 'finger' type food was put in front of him on the table. He said he could not eat it. The bochurim asked why. He answered "Because I have a strong taivah to (eat it)."
THAT is a holy person.

Motek

Thu, Oct 21 2004, 4:56 pm

are you so sure?
the story tells us nothing about his integrity, for example

my point is, we are complex people and we may shine in one area and be nothing special (if not worse) in another area

one thing doesn't cancel out another

let's take two examples, one in which a woman is mehader in tznius but is not too great bein adam l'chaveiro (with other people), and another example in which a woman is wonderful with others but does not dress in accordance with halacha

who is elevated? both? neither?

looking down on people who are not consistent is probably not advisable ... though admittedly, it's hard not to

Nechama

Thu, Oct 21 2004, 5:13 pm

We have a few different issues at hand here.
Behaviors between people
and those between people and Hashem.

Then we have those who use religion as a tool (or weapon) to control others.

Then we have minhag, and halacha,
And within THAT we have varying minhagim, and people who use heterim.

Then we have the question of judging others. Versus, the inyan (concept) of judging ourselves.

As for me, I have no need to judge others. I don't care if others are judgmental of me. No one can be as harsh on me as I am on myself. (Except my husband and my mother Wink

)

The Tanya says that our thoughts, words, and actions are the clothing of our soul. I prefer a well clad soul to a well clad body.

It says in gemara that you can tell a persons soul by 'kiso, kaaso and koso': his pocket - how he deals financially with others, his anger - how and who he takes it out on, and his cup - how he behaves when drinking. None of these are how he dresses, where he davens, what minhagim he follows.

We are also taught that Hashem can 'fagin' (begrudge?) a lack of respect that is owed to Hashem. But not a lack of respect owed to another human.

For me, I want to be holy through and through. I start with the basics and work from there.

micki

Thu, Oct 21 2004, 6:09 pm

what about the rabbi who goes to shul religiously and then makes fun of my husband if he can't make it to shul. his reason is- you should be in shul.
he's very good about bein adam lamakom but horrible lchavero.
yet he is considered the holiest guy here, aside from thr rav!

su7kids

Thu, Oct 21 2004, 6:18 pm

micki wrote:

Gee, Micki, I thought that happened only in OUR shul!! We have this challenge, too. My husband works about 3 or 4 jobs to allow me the privilege to stay home and be a mom, or work from home, as I choose. And yet Mr. Minyan Maker (who is not a Rabbi) totally looks down on my husband, and it really upsets me. Of course, this does not encourage my husband to go to minyan.

zuncompany

Thu, Oct 21 2004, 6:49 pm

My husband thought he was the only one! He does a lot of overtime cause he has deadlines and since he has to come home early for Shabbos and with all the holidays. It's almost 7 here and he isn't even on his way yet. Who knows when he will be able to leave. He has gotten home around 1am each night. The minyan maker calls in the morning... we need you. I feel so bad when he gets up and goes. Once I called him in the middle of the day and he didn't answer. He called me back later and was like I was davening. I was like WHAT! You went to shul. He said he was so tired that he sat there staring at the wall. He felt to guilty not to go though when they called him that morning. I now turn the ringer off before bed.
Sara

amother

Thu, Oct 21 2004, 10:33 pm

Motek if a man beats his wife that would undoe any integrity in other areas in my opinion.
It says alot about ones personality and integrity if they can do something like that

micki

Thu, Oct 21 2004, 11:16 pm

you know my husbands only "excuse " for coming late to shul on shabbos, or not going at all during the week is cause he has children. sometimes they are ready on time sometimes not. because he waits for them he is late.
and during the week he may not go cause I beg him not to, the newborn is screaming most are sick, I am sick whatever the reason. and every time I ask him to stay home he says can you live with the fact the shul may not have a minyan because of me?
I think and sometimes say- but who can replace me here? they can just call another man. I can't call another husband.
so because they give him such a hard time, making fun of him, or calling him 4 times in a row, and 4 different men on sun morning, or this holy guy teling him he's making a chillul lubavitch- all make him angry at ME for asking him to stay.
this is a big issue in our house.
what's the right thing?
there was one morning that I had a breast infection and was so sick the night before he had to carry me to the bathroom. the next morning was not much beter, and being sunday they called him a million times to go make the minyan. and B"H we have 4 kids then the baby was 3 months old. so the oldest was just over 4- and I could not get out of bed. there were diapers to change, kids to feed, normal things to do - which I was really to sick/weak to do. so I begged him to stay home, and with each phone call that came he got angrier at me for asking him to stay.
and so he went. I'm still here- but I'll never forget that, and I see I still have not forgiven that either.
am I wrong?

zuncompany

Thu, Oct 21 2004, 11:24 pm

micki... I am with you on that one.
Sara

deedee

Fri, Oct 22 2004, 12:51 am

so am I - "charity" starts at home! he can just tell them I need to stay home now please dont call me anymore!

ForeverYoung
Guest

Fri, Oct 22 2004, 12:55 am

A friend called me today to tell me that she's getting divorced. Her hubby goes around since she walked out of the house (after non-stop 2yr emotional obuse) & blackmouths her to whomever he can meet.
But I know the guy. He used to come to us for Shabbos. He is a nice guy. But a terrible, terrible husband & father.
No, not holy.
-----------
Or, how about a family that was glad that the father passed away and the obuse stopped, while the enire community mourned the loss of the most exolted & helpful neighbour?
------------

I think it's between YOU and HaShem. He knows who you are. You know who you are. Everybody else can go & bang their hads on the wall.

Get yoursef caller ID & let answering machine talk to the 'minyan makers'.
I think your Shalom Bais is worth $5/ mo

And don't pick up the phone if I know mental obuse is on the line.

Last edited by ForeverYoung on Sun, Aug 14 2005, 8:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

Fri, Oct 22 2004, 2:46 pm

Micki - my heart goes out to you. It won't be enough to get caller ID if your husband doesn't buy into the importance of taking care of you. He'll just be angry anyway. I hate when we have to run away from the phone - when we cringe when it rings.

My husband and I used to argue about minchah/maariv - I couldn't handle everyone at that time of day. Baruch Hashem, he finally "saw the light" and was very gracious about the whole thing. Is it the best possible solution? Should I be pushing him out of the house - maybe. This is what we worked out in our lives right now.

I can understand why you are still hurt by that sick episode, but you have to keep working on him as to the importance to you in getting his help sometimes. I would suggest you talk to him when you are relaxed (is that possible with so many, so young Very Happy

) and approach him in a loving way when you aren't feeling so vulnerable and needy. Good luck Micki

micki

Mon, Oct 25 2004, 2:15 pm

cs- you know someone pm'd me telling me they thought you came off a little critical of my husband. personally after rereading I don't think so now or then, but I can see why she did. so let me just clarify a few things. my husband helps out at home a ton, and knows that taking care of me when I am sick is the prioirty.
but he is greatly affected by comments like, "if your wife was frum then she would never ask you to stay" or : if your wife knew how important shul is, she would never even think of your not going to shul"
of course it bothers him and he responds to these comments apprropriatly but when you hear it so many times from so many sources, it begins to bother him. he says for the sake of making a kiddush lubavitch he has to go to shul. this community is very shull going minyan is the only important thing in life. you can be rude to a jew, no problem but if you don't go to shul you are treif. he also has a position in this town that requires him to be a step above everyone in yiras shamayim and in this town that means going to shul. if he doesn't go EVERY day then his job may be on the line.
at the same time he is ALSO a husband and father and to me that is the priority. but not in this town.and that is what I struggle with. we B"H have young children and raising them is a 2 person job. not one.
so considering the circumstance what am I to do if he needs to be at home? he bathes the kids and gets them into bed. but if shul corresponds to the time that we put the kids to bed, then of course he goes to shul.

and that is my private battle. because I need his help at home.

one time the baby was 5 weeks old and he was screaming even before my husband went to shul. so I fed him and put him in the car seat. I left him downstairs he was sleeping ewhile I put the older 3 to bed. I heard the baby start to cry, but m older ones needed me. remember the oldest was just 4 at the time, so we are talking 4. 2 and one yr olds. I was rushing trying to get them in cause I heard the baby intensify his screams. until everyone was diapered and in pjs and in bed the screams stopped. so thinking he fell asleep again I sang shema and made my way down.
the baby was blue and limp. the blanket worked its way over his face and he had no air. he was smothering. I picked him up and right away he started breathing agian. he was limp and not responding to me so I called the doctor who told me to nurse him. he had no strenght to do so, so he told me to drizzle water in his mouth, and that finally helped him recover. ihe started pinking up again, and I started to cry.
when my husband came home he found me a basket case and when he realized what went on told me that from now on he will take the baby to shul every night. and he did so for a week until people started commenting- what your wife can't handle it? a shul is no place for a baby. what can't hire a babysitter etc... mind you my husband said the baby slept the whole way thru shul, never cried once.
but they made so much fun of him, that he stopped taking the baby. and I had to struggle with 4 screaming kids at once. he only went to shul if they called him that they need a minyan and thats when the ribbing started again. what can't make it to shul anymore? are we your tatti that we have to force you there? whats wrong with your wife that she doesn't send you to shul?
and on and on. this has affected our marriage and continues to be a sore topic in our house.
so what is the right thing here? is the mans priority staying home or going to shul?

Motek

Mon, Oct 25 2004, 2:47 pm

is there any other possible way to get help with the kids at that time, for pay or not for pay?
is there anybody with whom you can do a barter - they help you at that critical time and you do something for them?

this is really a tough situation because BOTH things are impt - you need help and he really needs to attend a minyan - not because they're pestering him, but for himself and your family he needs to daven with a minyan

maybe if you brainstorm, considering possibilities you didn't think of before, you can come up with a win-win solution

Yael

Mon, Oct 25 2004, 2:56 pm

wow, that is some story!
that community needs some serious help!! you've got to think of some things that your husband can say to them when they make comments like that. if he truly beleives that helping you is the priority then he should be able to say something like I think that the health of my wife is more important than making a minyan. and until you are in my situation, dont judge me. or my wife knows how important minyan is, just like I know how important helping out is.

Mon, Oct 25 2004, 3:48 pm

Micki - I started to cry when I read your last posting....how do we ever know what's the right thing?

Chas vashalom that I was being critical of your husband. You are both in a very difficult situation. I think Motek had an excellent idea - if you could find another pair of hands to help you out, it would be great. It doesn't have to even be an adult or older kid. I sometimes call neighbors kids (10 - 12 year olds) to come and play with my kids. I'm here so I'm not worried - it's just another pair of hands.\

I also would find somebody respected in your community to have a little talk with these "idiots" sorry for being so blunt, who keep taunting your husband. I think it's great that he took the baby to shul - that's my kind of man. It's a big aveira to cause fights between a husband and wife.

I will try to think of some other ideas - your problem is very real and important - maybe I'll pick my hubby's brain. Good luck Micki

micki

Mon, Oct 25 2004, 6:38 pm

thank you all- I would love to hear of others what they do. I realize minyan is important, and I realize kids are too. but there has to be a balance somehow. but I don't know what should give.
we live a bit farther out than the rest of the community so there is no "next door" having my husband go pick up and drop off a girl is not practicalon a daily basis. aside from that I would feel weird having a girl come by to help if I was not paying her, and then if I did I'd be broke. also I can ask my hubby to change a stinky but I'd feel weird again with a girl. same goes for baths- no one likes bathing...
plus if the house is a mess then I'd pressure myself to clean before she came, not that the house would complain but I certainly will! Wink

so in an emergency, yes, but daily? the only ones committed to a family that way is yourself and your spouse.

I think I really need another "wife"
hahaha.
keep the suggestions coming please...

mommy2

Mon, Oct 25 2004, 9:14 pm

That story was so scary!! I give you credit for having kids so close in age and I'm sure its quite a challenge. . Try to make it easier for him and dont make him feel guilty for leaving at that time. Just some ideas, that might work for u: A baby carrier so ur baby is close to u. Putting 1 child to sleep at a time, dont pressure yourself to put all in at 7pm. Wait to he comes home to get the older ones into bed... Good Luck and I feel for you!

Last edited by mommy2 on Mon, Aug 08 2005, 9:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

Ozmom

Tue, Oct 26 2004, 9:56 am

Oh my goodness Mick...I am lost for words

First of all I understand you still feeling hurt about that sick time and the other times, I would too but as you have said it didn't come from him , it came from 'them' , so if you are having trouble forgiving , then make it them that needs the forgiveness.

Now is there someone sensible that the community respects that you could talk to about what is happening, so maybe they can help you and step in and have a sharp words with those taunting you?
I think insinuation to your husband that you are lacking in frumkeit is mamash an aveira.
Mamash . To be affecting someones sholom Bayis like that, that really angers me. Mad

No one should ever talk to someone negatively about their spouse.
I'm sure it says it somewhere in halocho.

I have an idea. How about your hubby speak to those nudging him to make it to the minyan that he will make a deal with them. He will make every minyan as long as they are sending over their daughters to help you free of charge!!! Twisted Evil

I think its a reasonable request. Very Happy

Oh and about changing the stinkys and the mess in the house, all the better, then they will go home and tell their fathers how hard it is for you and what a job you have and then maybe they will get a better picture of their behaviour.

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