How do we know that Islam isn't the Chosen Nation?

amother

Mistyrose

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 5:18 pm

I was asked this question. Can anyone help me with a logical understandable response that I can give? Please.

thunderstorm

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 5:19 pm

Islam is not a nation.

yidisheh mama

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 5:22 pm

Bizzydizzymommy wrote:

Islam is not a nation.

This.

Mommyg8

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 5:24 pm

If you would live in a Muslim country, you wouldn't have that question.

SpottedBanana

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 5:31 pm

Are you asking why we don't believe in Islam, from an intellectual point of view? Because it requires believing in one guy as opposed to 3 million people. Are you asking how we know from a Torah point of view that Hashem never forsook us for the Muslims? Look in Bechukosai, "lo me'astim v'lo ge'altim lechalosam..."

amother

Mistyrose

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 5:54 pm

SpottedBanana wrote:

This. I fully believe in Yiddishkeit so this isn't for me, but I haven't gone into all this enough to be able to answer this question that was asked of me. I would be really grateful if you can point me to a source that can reassure said child that Hashem hasn't chosen Islam or another nation to replace us as His chosen people.

He says that in this week's parshah it says: וְעַתָּ֗ה אִם־שָׁמ֤וֹעַ תִּשְׁמְעוּ֙ בְּקֹלִ֔י וּשְׁמַרְתֶּ֖ם אֶת־בְּרִיתִ֑י וִֽהְיִ֨יתֶם לִ֤י סְגֻלָּה֙ מִכָּל־הָ֣עַמִּ֔ים כִּי־לִ֖י כָּל־הָאָֽרֶץ - And you shall be to Me a kingdom of princes and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the children of Israel." so he's wondering if perhaps Hashem switched us due to our sins.

amother

Mistyrose

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 5:55 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

If you would live in a Muslim country, you wouldn't have that question.

I don't have this question myself even without living in a Muslim country Smile

Mommyg8

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 5:56 pm

Isn't that a navi, that Hashem promised us that he will not switch us for another nation, no matter what? Following because I would like to hear this answer as well!

amother

Mistyrose

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 5:57 pm

Bizzydizzymommy wrote:

Islam is not a nation.

Semantics really, but okay. So how do we know that Hashem hasn't taken Yishmael's descendants as His chosen people?

WhatFor

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 6:02 pm

If there exists a god that created the universe that wants us to believe that women should be subjugated and ppl should blow themselves up and kill innocents on such god's behalf, I'm happy to defy it.

amother

Mistyrose

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 6:02 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Isn't that a navi, that Hashem promised us that he will not switch us for another nation, no matter what? Following because I would like to hear this answer as well!

Yes. There is. In Vayikra 26:44/45 "And yet, even so, while they are still in the land of their enemies, I will not reject or spurn them, lest I break my covenant with them by destroying them". And also in Yirmeyahu 5:18 "But even in those days [when because of their sins punishments will be brought on the Jewish People], declares G-d, I will not make a complete destruction [of you]." (Quoted from Beyond a Reasonable Doubt)

But the passage in this week's parshah (as quoted in an earlier post) has thrown him for a loop so I'm looking to explain that.

SixOfWands

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 6:10 pm

amother wrote:

Semantics really, but okay. So how do we know that Hashem hasn't taken Yishmael's descendants as His chosen people?

You're asking how we know that the Torah is true.

Christians believe in their Bible, including Torah. But they say "all that stuff, nevermind." Kashrut, everything. Superseded. Makes no sense to me, that Hashem would do that.

Well, same for the Muslims. They believe that certain parts of Torah are divine, others are corrupted, and the Qur'an fixes it. Again, why would Hashem do that.

WhatFor

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 6:13 pm

amother wrote:

Semantics really, but okay. So how do we know that Hashem hasn't taken Yishmael's descendants as His chosen people?

Some would argue the following:

The Torah says explicitly that you must follow the whole Torah, never change it at its fundamental level, etc. Both Judaism and Islam proclaim that such Torah was presented to the Jews at har Sinai. It includes all these threats about what happens if you turn away from the Torah.

Islam claims that at some point, the Jews were misbehaving and God handed a new book to Mohammed, who then approached the people of Islam saying they had to follow the new book.

So what kind of God would tell you over and over, to your face, I won't change anything, don't believe any false prophets, and then go around, and change everything?

I've heard the following mashal told in this context: A judge was trying to distribute a contested inheritance between two children. One child comes before the judge and says, "my father came to me in a dream last night, and said you should give me all of the inheritance." To which the judge responded, "if your father wanted me to give you the inheritance, why didn't he just come to me?"

Even if one were to believe that God would change the Torah after he promised he wouldn't, why wouldn't he redo the Sinai revelation? Only a cruel God would appear to you personally to tell you to follow a doctrine he'll never change, you shouldn't believe anyone else who tells you to do otherwise, and then punish you later for failing to listen to someone he explicitly told you not to believe.

amother

Mistyrose

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 6:21 pm

WhatFor wrote:

Thanks for all of this! I've tried going along with this reasoning but he says that he understands that Hashem wouldn't change the Torah, but maybe He decided to give it to another nation instead because we misbehaved.

Mommyg8

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 6:24 pm

amother wrote:

That's pretty easy to refute! Because no other nation even claims to have received our Torah.

Mommyg8

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 6:25 pm

Isn't there another posuk something like, even with all this I will never change you for another nation? I need to look this up .

amother

Lilac

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 7:07 pm

WhatFor wrote:

That's cultural, not Koranic.

Mommyg8

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 7:13 pm

amother wrote:

That's cultural, not Koranic.

No, it's part of their religion. Don't swallow Obama's lies.

gila-rina

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 7:18 pm

We be believe in 13 yikarim, which don't give with Islam - No Navi greater than Moshe

BH5745

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 7:22 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Isn't there another posuk something like, even with all this I will never change you for another nation? I need to look this up .

There are a couple places in the Torah I can think of that allude to the fact that Hashem will never exchange the Jewish nation for any other.

One is where Hashem promises Avraham Avinu in Lech-Lecha: "(13) And He said to Abram, "You shall surely know that your seed will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and they will enslave them and oppress them, for four hundred years. (14) And also the nation that they will serve will I judge, and afterwards they will go forth with great possessions." Only the Jews were enslaved for 400 years in Mitzrayim, and only we went out with great possessions.

We also know that the Ishmaelites and Edomites come from Avraham, though they are not his seed, from Lech-Lecha: (3) And Abram fell upon his face, and God spoke with him, saying, (4) "As for Me, behold My covenant is with you, and you shall become the father of a multitude of nations. (5) And your name shall no longer be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. (6) And I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings will emerge from you." Avraham Avinu is the father of nations, but they are not his seed, and only Yitzhak inherited from him.

What about the Shema, which is straight from Devarim? it's Shema Yisroel, not Shema Ishmael! Then the Shema says " I am the L-rd your G‑d who brought you out of the land of Egypt to be your G‑d; I, the L-rd, am your G‑d. True." Hahsem didn't bring Ishmael out of Mitzrayim.

In the Shema from Parshas Devarim, Hashem warns us what will happen if we throw off the Torah: "You shall fear the Lord, your God, worship Him, and swear by His name. (14) Do not go after other gods, of the gods of the peoples who are around you. (15) For the Lord, your God, is a zealous God among you, lest the wrath of the Lord, your God, be kindled against you, and destroy you off the face of the earth." Hashem doesn't say He would choose another nation if we misbehave.

There is another Parsha in the Torah I can't think of right now, but it tells the blessings and lo aleinu the curses that will come upon us if we don't follow the Torah. But nohere in that Parsha does it say Hashem would choose another nation.

Please read Parshas Nitzavim (https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9994/jewish/Chapter-30.htm).

There Hashem tells us that we will turn away from Torah, and then he will exile us from our land. Then we will return to Him, and he will gather us in from the nation across which He has scattered us: (1) And it will be, when all these things come upon you the blessing and the curse which I have set before you that you will consider in your heart, among all the nations where the Lord your God has banished you, (2) and you will return to the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul, and you will listen to His voice according to all that I am commanding you this day you and your children, (3) then, the Lord, your God, will bring back your exiles, and He will have mercy upon you. He will once again gather you from all the nations, where the Lord, your God, had dispersed you. (4) Even if your exiles are at the end of the heavens, the Lord, your God, will gather you from there, and He will take you from there. (5) And the Lord, your God, will bring you to the land which your forefathers possessed, and you [too] will take possession of it, and He will do good to you, and He will make you more numerous than your forefathers."