Why do most ppl at shabbat meals have bad napkin etiquette?

Fox

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 10:45 am

InnerMe wrote:

Yes, everyone cares about table manners. But it seems majority here see it extreme to hold people by said napkin etiquette. If someone eats sesame chicken with their fingers, than majority here would agree that said person is being behaving unmannerly.

That's why I quoted WhatFor's post. Because she's was so on target that whoever is defending OP or "manners" is veering off the napkin ettiquete that was the subject of OPs post. THAT is what Imas were saying is snobbery- because that crosses a line of regular manners that everyone has to have. That's what Imas were protesting.

And this is precisely what I find incredibly offensive.

It is perfectly acceptable to tell the OP that you disagree with her interpretation of etiquette rules. It is perfectly acceptable to tell her that you are unfamiliar with the practice she's referring to. It is perfectly acceptable to tell her that while perhaps she's technically correct, she's overreacting a bit. It's perfectly acceptable to allow her to vent about something that bothers her without taking it too seriously.

But instead, posters actively made fun of the OP and broadened their targets to anyone they deemed too la-di-dah, with examples flying all over the place.

The fact that someone else has a more formal lifestyle does not, ipso facto, make them or their practices "snobbish," and declaring arbitrarily that napkin etiquette is "snobbery" but "regular" manners are important is a bit presumtuous. For some people, what you do with your napkin is "regular" manners.

Let's say you were friends with someone who was raised in Japan, and she went on a rant about how people walk right into her house with their shoes on -- when she has perfectly good slippers in the foyer! Would you make fun of her? Call her a snob? Probably not. You'd realize that she was raised a certain way and either didn't realize or kind of forgot that people in the West don't necessarily take their shoes off when they enter a home. You'd sympathize a little, maybe gently remind her that not everyone is used to that, agree that it must be hard to get used to, and probably try to remember to take your shoes off in her house.

Why do your fellow Imamothers deserve so much less respect?

SpottedBanana

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 10:51 am

Fox wrote:

Let's say you were friends with someone who was raised in Japan, and she went on a rant about how people walk right into her house with their shoes on -- when she has perfectly good slippers in the foyer! Would you make fun of her? Call her a snob? Probably not. You'd realize that she was raised a certain way and either didn't realize or kind of forgot that people in the West don't necessarily take their shoes off when they enter a home. You'd sympathize a little, maybe gently remind her that not everyone is used to that, agree that it must be hard to get used to, and probably try to remember to take your shoes off in her house.

Why do your fellow Imamothers deserve so much less respect?

Because in this example, that person was raised in Japan. I personally can tolerate someone thinking that putting your napkin in your lap falls under normal etiquette akin to slipper-donning to Japan, but not that going to the bathroom during the meal is forbidden. Especially if they grew up in a similar time and place as me, or my mother, or my grandmother, and thus cannot pretend that their culture was so different. There are lines. (Getting liberal, Fox! Wink

Not everything needs to be tolerated)

InnerMe

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 10:54 am

Fox wrote:

Fox, I admit there is truth to your words.
I would probably do all that. FTR, I did not call OP snobby. I was explaining the way a lot of Imas see it. Perhaps I should have gone about it more gently. What got to me was the way OP seemed so set in her way, and she's calling a whole lot of good women ill-mannered and uncouth. I think they too deserve respect.

Mommyg8

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 11:01 am

Fox, I think the problem here is that we DID try to gently explain it to her, but somehow it didn't take. So the conversation got a little more heated, because subtlety can only take you so far....

In your Japan analogy, what if your friend would continuously harp on the rudeness of the ENTIRE United States, at some point you just get tired of explaining things gently.

I happen to know someone personally in real life who thinks it's extremely rude to take bathroom breaks during the Shabbos meal.... it's not so much fun to deal with this on a constant basis. And at some point, if you see that all the other cars are going in a different direction... but I'm repeating myself.

Fox

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 11:33 am

InnerMe wrote:

Mommyg8 wrote:

Fox, think the problem here is that we DID try to gently explain it to her, but somehow it didn't take. So the conversation got a little more heated, because subtlety can only take you so far....

Come, now!

I re-read the OP's post, and she never called anyone uncouth or ill-mannered. She didn't understand how people could do something that she finds rude and distasteful. Well, that's the theme of a gazillion threads around here.

But within the first handful of posts, one Amother snarkily responded that she would have to look for "pigs" when her children were ready for shidduchim, and she got twenty-some "likes."

Another sarcastically responded that she didn't want to feel like she was eating with the Queen.

Setting up a false dichotomy in which you pretend that someone has called you a pig or insisted on royal protocol is hardly being subtle.

Here's my real problem with the anti-napkin etiquette position: it assumes that there is some objective line in the sand between reasonable manners and ridiculous rules that is obvious to everyone. But that's an incredibly self-centered view. What is obvious to you may not be obvious to someone else, and other people may disagree heartily about where to draw that line.

If napkin etiquette isn't a part of your life, then have the courage of your convictions. Either don't comment or say, "Hmm, interesting. Never thought about it" or "Around here people fold their napkins into pirate hats and wear them home" or whatever. But if napkin issues don't plague you, then why the need to even get involved? That's like me getting involved in a deep convo about custom shaitels. Very Happy

Bnei Berak 10

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 11:33 am

InnerMe wrote:

I disagree on this point. Quite a few people in this thread have aired quite a subtle and not so subtle contempt for table manners. They *will* put that sentence in their posts but their attitude and the air around it when you read their entire posts display a very different message. If someone insists saying "Butt out of my plate" "Mind your own business" and similar, well in my opinion it's the very opposite of what etiquette and table manners are about.

SpottedBanana

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 11:39 am

Fox wrote:

Here's my real problem with the anti-napkin etiquette position: it assumes that there is some objective line in the sand between reasonable manners and ridiculous rules that is obvious to everyone. But that's an incredibly self-centered view. What is obvious to you may not be obvious to someone else, and other people may disagree heartily about where to draw that line.

And where do you draw the line about when we draw lines and when we don't? Slippery slope here into moral relativism and post-modernism IMO. As I said before, napkins might be a source of legitimate differences, but not bathroom breaks. Sometimes people are just wrong.

hillary

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 11:45 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

So you are basically telling me that 'manners' and 'etiquette' are all about mixing into other people's business and telling them what they should do? And you still see it as a value?

Sorry, but I value kindness and generosity, not arbitrary rules. If you want to put your napkin somewhere, by all means do it. But don't call your method 'universal' when by your admission 'most people' don't do it. And don't demand I follow your rules. Especially when many people have told you that they don't like your napkin on their seats. I find it bad middos to put your napkin on a seat when it is likely the owner of the seat does not want it there. Here we have a dichotomy between 'manners' and middos. Guess which one OP would like to choose.

alis_al_kulana

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 11:47 am

Fox, my point is that complaining about people taking 2-3 comes at a desert table is the same as a Japanese person complaining about people not wearing her slippers in the house.

Yes I can empathize that this is not done in other cultures.

But what you're doing is more akin to walking into an American home and demanding slippers because you're Japanese.

Even worse, trying to say that all Americans don't wear shoes in their house.

it might be true that some Americans don't , but none of them provide slippers.

you're taking a totally different different cultural standard and applying it to a different culture. it's not polite.

Fox

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 12:05 pm

SpottedBanana wrote:

I answered this back on Page 5 in my initial post in this thread. None of us are purists, and no one in contemporary society lives a truly formal lifestyle. I'd never heard of the no-bathroom rule, but I have heard that you should provide one footman for every two guests. And guess what? I do not observe that rule. I provide zero footmen for every two guests.

You attempt to set standards and work with what you have, and that changes throughout life. I mentioned that I hate plastic table covers, but when I had a lot of little kids, I consciously relaxed that standard for a period of time. I prefer not to use paper goods on Shabbos, but I've had a lot of health issues in the last year or so, and if I'm not going to be up to doing dishes, I relax my standards and use nice disposables.

Making a conscious choice not to observe a particular practice or to relax a particular standard because it simply doesn't fit your lifestyle, isn't practical, or is outdated in some way is perfectly legitimate. All of us do it all the time. I bet I'm not the only one who willfully ignores the rule about footmen.

It is absolutely true that there have been times and cultures in which etiquette became oppressive and burdensome. From what I see, however, most of society would benefit from a little more etiquette rather than less.

Bnei Berak 10

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 12:20 pm

hillary wrote:

Hillary, I have to give you the credit of being a master of word twisting like no one else! There a several of your statements above which I never said or wrote. Don't try to glue them on me. They belong to someone else in this forum.
Instead of me having arguing to all these twists I instead suggest that you read Fox's posts several times. They are excellent and could do you good.

SpottedBanana

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 12:28 pm

Fox wrote:

Sorry, Fox, I don't know what this has to do with my question. I'm not talking about what I or anyone else does in their home. I'm talking about where it is or is not appropriate to tolerate someone complaining about other people's manners or lack thereof. I'm saying that there are some white areas (e.g. forks being mandatory to eat chicken in public -- absolutely true), some gray (e.g. napkins needing to stay on laps -- debatable), and some black (e.g. bathroom breaks being forbidden -- absurd). You on the other hand seem to be saying that if someone believes that napkins "NEVER" (direct quote from Bnei Berak 10) go on the table, then her writing that opinion should be tolerated and respected. IOW, I'm saying there are lines here with regard to what opinions should get respected, at least as regards telling everyone what is or is not polite. Nothing to do with what people actually do in their homes.

Fox

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 12:35 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Fox, I don't have time to cut and paste now, but there were quite a few posts (not necessarily the op) where opinions were expressed in more absolute terms. I agree, the op's post was not particularly triggering. Some of the later posts were, though,at least to my mind....

Again, I think it's hard to argue that pro-etiquette posters were being intransigent when the conversation started with the "pig" and "Queen" comments. If there were any triggering to be done, I'd say that fallaciously suggesting that someone thinks you're a pig or that someone demands the use of royal protocol pretty much fits the bill.

alis_al_kulana wrote:

you're taking a totally different different cultural standard and applying it to a different culture.

I think it's a mistake to assume that there's a common Jewish culture that we all share or are at least familiar with. Perhaps my Japanese/Western analogy is off, but not by much. Between different kehillas, different countries, different ethnic traditions, different regions, and just plain ol' different families . . . well, there's a lot of room for pretty wide variations in what's considered appropriate.

Fox

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 12:55 pm

SpottedBanana wrote:

Okay, I misunderstood what you were asking.

Here's the problem: if someone was raised with the tradition of folding their napkins into pirate hats and wearing them home from the seuda, no amount of argumentation is going to convince them that their community was "wrong," and you're just going to look like a jerk in the process.

The best part of being a grown-up, though, is that you have self-autonomy. If your parents diligently folded their napkins in pirate hats, you can acknowledge that, yes, everyone did that in your community growing up, but you've decided to abandon that particular practice. The same goes for fellow Imamothers. The fact that someone knows absolutely that folding napkins into pirate hats was decreed by Moshe Rabbeinu at Har Sinai can be met with polite silence.

Now, if there is a practical implication -- say, your DH hears about this practice and wants to adopt it -- you may want to do a bit of research to determine that making pirate hats is not actually quite as universal as he claims. You may even put your foot down and say, "Everyone else can make pirate hats, but we are not going to do that with our napkins."

But, really, trying to prove to people that their standards are "wrong" is like teaching the proverbial pig to sing. The pig never learns to sing, and he just gets mad at you.

SpottedBanana

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 1:23 pm

Fox wrote:

Why can't this be applied to the OP and her camp just as well as ours? It seems like you're saying "Live and let live," but then what would be the point of imamother or debate in general? Sometimes I tell people that they're wrong, and sometimes people tell me that I'm wrong. Much more interesting then everyone sitting politely with their napkins in their laps ignoring each other's foibles and admiring the furniture.

enneamom

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 1:32 pm

SpottedBanana wrote:

I happen to disagree. I think it's more interesting to stuff hulushkis in each other's mouths, than to stuff opinions about earth-shattering things like table manners in each other's ears.

amother

Firebrick

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 1:41 pm

Fox wrote:

I haven't commented here because I really have no strong opinion. But I think that when one starts a thread that sounds judgy, the people who feel judged tend to react defensively.

They respond with some degree of sarcasm or personal attack, and then the OP and those who agree with the OP complain they are being unfairly attacked.

The ones accused of attacking are shocked; they feel *they* were attacked first, and they're simply trying to explain their own position.

This dynamic seems to happen often here.

Now, arguably, one shouldn't feel judged or defensive because of silly things written by anonymous people online.

But, the argument can just as easily be made, that people should try to use a little more care so their posts and thread titles are not worded in a way that makes others feel defensive or judged.