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Forum
-> Relationships
-> Manners & Etiquette
Fox
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 Tue, Feb 06 2018, 4:50 pm
| SpottedBanana wrote: | | Why can't this be applied to the OP and her camp just as well as ours? It seems like you're saying "Live and let live," but then what would be the point of imamother or debate in general? Sometimes I tell people that they're wrong, and sometimes people tell me that I'm wrong. Much more interesting then everyone sitting politely with their napkins in their laps ignoring each other's foibles and admiring the furniture. |
Because standards of behavior aren't based on logic; they're based on history and culture and all kinds of weird quirks that are impervious to proof by evidence.
It's as if we were going to debate whether the correct word for carbonated soft drinks is "pop," "soda," or "Coke." However much we debate it, I'd better order a soda in NY; a pop in Chicago, and the Coke of my choice in Mississippi if I want my drink in a timely manner.
However, there's nothing wrong with pointing out why certain standards are maladaptive. It's not necessarily absurd, snobbish,or dysfunctional to have a footman for every two guests. It's just not realistic in an era when most people don't have footmen.
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Jewishfoodie
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Tue, Feb 06 2018, 6:25 pm
| pause wrote: | And you need to do this like my kids: with your index fingers rotating in your ears.  |
That's adorable! Where did they come up with that! Reminds me of a song, "Hello, my name is Joe..." look it up! My kids do THAT.
OH. And be polite, Yada yada yada... No feet on coffee table.. Without napkins etc..
Don't want to derail this thread in any way;
just the mental image you created was adorable! 
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Simple1
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Tue, Feb 06 2018, 6:33 pm
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Fox, people are getting defensive because of the tone of the OPs post which makes them feel judged.
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SixOfWands
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Tue, Feb 06 2018, 7:10 pm
| Fox wrote: | Because standards of behavior aren't based on logic; they're based on history and culture and all kinds of weird quirks that are impervious to proof by evidence.
It's as if we were going to debate whether the correct word for carbonated soft drinks is "pop," "soda," or "Coke." However much we debate it, I'd better order a soda in NY; a pop in Chicago, and the Coke of my choice in Mississippi if I want my drink in a timely manner.
However, there's nothing wrong with pointing out why certain standards are maladaptive. It's not necessarily absurd, snobbish,or dysfunctional to have a footman for every two guests. It's just not realistic in an era when most people don't have footmen. |
Yes. No. Maybe. Sometimes.
While one may debate the correct term for carbonated soft drinks, the fact is that if you order a pop in New York City, they may snicker, but they'll know what you mean.
In this case, there were several things going on:
(1) Some of the things being presented as "basic" and "universal" etiquette were just plain wrong. Eg, one does not leave your napkin on the chair at the end of the meal, and one is definitely permitted to excuse oneself if necessary during the meal. Maybe correction wouldn't change the OP's mind, but there are many people reading here.
(2) People felt as if they were being looked down upon as unsophisticated, socially awkward, uncouth bumpkins if they didn't, for example, place the napkin in their lap at the beginning of a meal. And, well, they were (IMNSHO). Its a lot easier to take someone saying "I always learned that the napkin goes on the lap; its off putting to me to see used napkins on the table while I'm eating," than "I'm disgusted by the fact that people don't know basic table manners, and continually act in ways that nauseate me and the rest of civilized humanity." (I am exaggerating the OP for effect.) And when people feel attacked, they respond in kind.
(3) People are conflating formality and informality. While etiquette may tell me to merely dab at my lips, that's not going to happen if I make ribs for the family. Maybe its technically wrong, but sometimes that's OK.
But as I said above, people need to understand that etiquette isn't antiquated rules, its social lubricant. It tells us what to do, or not to do, so we don't have to wonder. Think about it like mourning (which I hope you won't know for a long time). There are all kinds of rules about what you say when, and what the mourner can do when. And outside, they look arcane and ridiculous. When you're there, though, they're extraordinarily helpful. Is it too soon to go to a movie, or to cut my hair, or to go to my son's ballgame? I don't have to think about it -- the answers are there. Similarly, what do I do with food I don't like that 's on my plate, where does my flatware go after I'm finished, am I allowed to start eating before everyone is served ... I don't need to think about it, there are already rules.
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SpottedBanana
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Tue, Feb 06 2018, 7:43 pm
| SixOfWands wrote: | Yes. No. Maybe. Sometimes.
While one may debate the correct term for carbonated soft drinks, the fact is that if you order a pop in New York City, they may snicker, but they'll know what you mean.
In this case, there were several things going on:
(1) Some of the things being presented as "basic" and "universal" etiquette were just plain wrong. Eg, one does not leave your napkin on the chair at the end of the meal, and one is definitely permitted to excuse oneself if necessary during the meal. Maybe correction wouldn't change the OP's mind, but there are many people reading here.
(2) People felt as if they were being looked down upon as unsophisticated, socially awkward, uncouth bumpkins if they didn't, for example, place the napkin in their lap at the beginning of a meal. And, well, they were (IMNSHO). Its a lot easier to take someone saying "I always learned that the napkin goes on the lap; its off putting to me to see used napkins on the table while I'm eating," than "I'm disgusted by the fact that people don't know basic table manners, and continually act in ways that nauseate me and the rest of civilized humanity." (I am exaggerating the OP for effect.) And when people feel attacked, they respond in kind.
(3) People are conflating formality and informality. While etiquette may tell me to merely dab at my lips, that's not going to happen if I make ribs for the family. Maybe its technically wrong, but sometimes that's OK.
But as I said above, people need to understand that etiquette isn't antiquated rules, its social lubricant. It tells us what to do, or not to do, so we don't have to wonder. Think about it like mourning (which I hope you won't know for a long time). There are all kinds of rules about what you say when, and what the mourner can do when. And outside, they look arcane and ridiculous. When you're there, though, they're extraordinarily helpful. Is it too soon to go to a movie, or to cut my hair, or to go to my son's ballgame? I don't have to think about it -- the answers are there. Similarly, what do I do with food I don't like that 's on my plate, where does my flatware go after I'm finished, am I allowed to start eating before everyone is served ... I don't need to think about it, there are already rules. |
I agree with the first 3 points, but not as much with the last -- some people may find these kinds of rules helpful, and some may not. I only find etiquette helpful inasmuch as it helps me determine how much to sacrifice for the sake of not bothering others (not slurping hot soup) and what is socially acceptable not to sacrifice (coughing is okay as long as you cover your mouth). Otherwise it's hard to draw the line. I think things like where to put your flatware are totally optional, as it really shouldn't bother anyone else.
(edited for typo)
Last edited by SpottedBanana on Wed, Feb 07 2018, 2:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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Bluesky 1
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Wed, Feb 07 2018, 12:57 am
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Napkin issues. Please tell me you have no other problems in your life then to think about napkins. Oy.
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Bnei Berak 10
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Wed, Feb 07 2018, 4:26 am
| SpottedBanana wrote: | I agree with the first 3 points, but not as much with the last -- some people may find these kinds of rules helpful, and some may not. I only find etiquette helpful inasmuch as it helps me determine how much to sacrifice for the sake of not bothering others (not slurping hot soup) and what is socially acceptable not to sacrifice (coughing is okay as long as you cover your mouth). Otherwise it's hard to draw the line. I think things like where to put your flatware are totally optional, as it really shouldn't bother anyone else.
(edited for typo) |
Are you speaking about used cutlery? Or unused? If you mean used cutlery then you surely realize it may cause stains on the table cloth for someone to try to remove. That someone is probably the hostess (unless you have dry cleaning service).
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SpottedBanana
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Wed, Feb 07 2018, 12:34 pm
| Bnei Berak 10 wrote: | | Are you speaking about used cutlery? Or unused? If you mean used cutlery then you surely realize it may cause stains on the table cloth for someone to try to remove. That someone is probably the hostess (unless you have dry cleaning service). |
I've never been at a table without some kind of plastic cover on top of the tablecloth.
However, I just realized that you are the poster whose husband had a stroke last month. For all our disagreements, I hope I haven't hurt your feelings and sincerely apologize if I have.
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greenfire
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Wed, Feb 07 2018, 2:19 pm
never put your dirty napkin on the chair & never put your used cutlery on the table as it stays on the plate - opposite sides face down and leaning on plate if you are still eating & face up together in middle of the plate when done
if you are helping to clear table NEVER scrape leftovers from dishes on a singular one to pile up it is ill mannered like dogs not to mention nauseating ... bring them into the kitchen 2 by 2 [more could possibly cause things to clumsily fall and/or break] where you clean them off into the garbage
also if you blow your nose in public [which in my humble opinion you should do privately] - never leave your tissue on a table/counter/coffee table or anywhere besides the garbage or your pocket
such controversy !!!
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amother
Firebrick
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Wed, Feb 07 2018, 2:25 pm
| greenfire wrote: | never put your dirty napkin on the chair & never put your used cutlery on the table as it stays on the plate - opposite sides face down and leaning on plate if you are still eating & face up together in middle of the plate when done
if you are helping to clear table NEVER scrape leftovers from dishes on a singular one to pile up it is ill mannered like dogs not to mention nauseating ... bring them into the kitchen 2 by 2 [more could possibly cause things to clumsily fall and/or break] where you clean them off into the garbage
also if you blow your nose in public [which in my humble opinion you should do privately] - never leave your tissue on a table/counter/coffee table or anywhere besides the garbage or your pocket
such controversy !!! |
Is this a rule? I totally never thought about that, but I will make sure to be aware in the future (although we only eat on plastic disposable plates)
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amother
Seashell
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Wed, Feb 07 2018, 3:12 pm
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You know what's bad napkin etiquette? I once had a guest who used our silk challah cover as his napkin to clean cholent off his hands and face. Now that's bad napkin etiquette.
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Fox
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Wed, Feb 07 2018, 3:13 pm
| greenfire wrote: | | if you are helping to clear table NEVER scrape leftovers from dishes on a singular one to pile up it is ill mannered like dogs not to mention nauseating ... bring them into the kitchen 2 by 2 [more could possibly cause things to clumsily fall and/or break] where you clean them off into the garbage |
Uh oh! Here we go again!
Years ago, I remember "do they scrape at the table?" was one of those infamous shidduch-nixing questions. I guess it was thought that scraping at the table was encoded into people's DNA.
I agree with you wholeheartedly, Greenie. Scraping at the table is not exactly a sign that civilization is collapsing and that terrorists are winning, but it's close. However, as I get older and my joints are joining arthritic protest movements, I'm choosing to breathe deeply and close my eyes when an enthusiastic guest jumps up to help clear and starts by scraping the plates. I figure I can sit out the occasional battle against the decline of civilization. 
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enneamom
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Wed, Feb 07 2018, 3:15 pm
| amother wrote: | | You know what's bad napkin etiquette? I once had a guest who used our silk challah cover as his napkin to clean cholent off his hands and face. Now that's bad napkin etiquette. |
 
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Fox
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Wed, Feb 07 2018, 3:19 pm
| amother wrote: | | You know what's bad napkin etiquette? I once had a guest who used our silk challah cover as his napkin to clean cholent off his hands and face. Now that's bad napkin etiquette. |
I think you win the prize. At least I hope you do! I'm going to take a wild guess and assume this gentleman was not married?
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Jewishfoodie
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Wed, Feb 07 2018, 5:21 pm
I was once at a meal with several other couples, where the hostess, G-d bless her generous heart, served on dishes, on a beautiful embroidered tablecloth. A male guest accidentally knocked over a glass of wine and was mortified. The hostess, and again, G-d bless her and always keep her wealthy because she truly is an example for every Bas Yisrael, smiled and said, "This gets dry cleaned every week, Yaakov, and I was hoping someone would give me an excuse to open the bottle of wine I wanted."
She then pulled out what I later found out was a $120 bottle of wine, handed it to the guest and said, (this is not verbatim but close) "You have the honors! I'll take half a glass. Thanks."
Maan, now that is class! And the guest was smiling 2 seconds later. And he actually felt good to pour her the wine. I'm pretty sure she just made believe she sipped, tho I'm not 100% sure.. But what I am sure is that there's no way I could have pulled that off as graciously. So, my friends, no matter what you do with your napkin, no matter if u eat on plastic or gold, it's HOW YOU BEHAVE that matters. In that moment, she could have blown her nose in her tablecloth and she wouldn't have gotten one ounce less of my respect.
So all these opinions are subjective. IMHO.
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iyar
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Wed, Feb 07 2018, 5:39 pm
| Bluesky 1 wrote: | | Napkin issues. Please tell me you have no other problems in your life then to think about napkins. Oy. |
Sometimes that's exactly the point, Bluesky.
You do have other problems. Big ones, maybe lots of them. So you purposely worry about nonsensical things like linen napkins to keep your mind off all the rest of it.
May no grey cloud ever wander into your blue sky so you never know what I'm talking about.
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amother
Seashell
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Wed, Feb 07 2018, 10:27 pm
| Fox wrote: | | I think you win the prize. At least I hope you do! I'm going to take a wild guess and assume this gentleman was not married? |
He was not married at that time. B"H he found a really lovely kallah not too long after this. A lid for every pot!
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enneamom
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Wed, Feb 07 2018, 10:54 pm
| amother wrote: | | He was not married at that time. B"H he found a really lovely kallah not too long after this. A lid for every pot! |
A board for every challah cover...
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oliveoil
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Wed, Feb 07 2018, 10:58 pm
| Fox wrote: | | I think you win the prize. At least I hope you do! |
I think I can trump that one.
I was once at a Pesach seder and the person sitting next to me whipped out a credit card and tried to floss her teeth with it. When she realized it was too thick, she switched it for a $5 bill and used that instead.
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Jewishfoodie
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Wed, Feb 07 2018, 11:57 pm
| oliveoil wrote: | I think I can trump that one.
I was once at a Pesach seder and the person sitting next to me whipped out a credit card and tried to floss her teeth with it. When she realized it was too thick, she switched it for a $5 bill and used that instead. |
If she woulda had really bad teeth, the latest Samsung would have worked in a pinch  yah.. U win. Gross
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