Doesnt believe GD gave the torah

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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling

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Seriously

Mon, Feb 05 2018, 11:15 pm

Hi all
I was recently set up to learn with a young women weekly. She told me that she does not believe that Gd wrote or gave the Torah.
She wants to learn the basics of Judaism and the history that makes us the Jewish people.
Can you suggest a topic we learn or a book?
I was thinking about learning the yud gimme ikrim- though maybe that will be a little heavy.
Other suggestions please!
Thank you

amother

Ecru

Mon, Feb 05 2018, 11:17 pm

I say stick with Jewish history, the chagim, and the narrative parts of Chumash. Trying to convince her about belief has a good chance of backfiring.

SpottedBanana

Mon, Feb 05 2018, 11:20 pm

There are many many kiruv books out there that will appeal to different types of people. Permission to Receive is a book of persuasive arguments that Hashem wrote and gave the Torah, but I have heard that some don't like it. There is also Gateway to Judaism if she wants a little lighter (though excellent), and the Kuzari, Derech Hashem and Chovos Halevavos (all have been translated) if she's the really intellectual type who wants real primary sources so to speak.

Frenchfry

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 12:07 am

Aryeh Kaplan anthology has a good section on yud gimmel ikrim.

A great book to explain the concept of Torah misinai, and other Yiddeshkeit basics that are hard to understand is " the non-orthodox jew's guide to orthodox jews" by David Baum

DrMom

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 12:42 am

Seriously wrote:

I'm not sure how you can learn the basics of Judaism without touching on the fact that Hashem gave us the Torah...

I guess you could stick to history, without dwelling on (but not skipping) the Matan Torah part...

PAMOM

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 7:23 am

Classic book (if she really wants to study) Jews , Gd, and History. She doesn’t have to believe in Gd to see how belief shaped our history.

Seriously

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 10:19 am

Thanks guys...
If anyone else has had a good experience with a specific book, please let me know
I'm hesitant to do something so strong like permission to receive right now..

amother

Cerise

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 10:28 am

Seriously wrote:

Thanks guys...
If anyone else has had a good experience with a specific book, please let me know
I'm hesitant to do something so strong like permission to receive right now..

good instinct. She's not asking you to help her believe - she just wants to learn what its all about.

SpottedBanana

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 1:31 pm

Seriously wrote:

Thanks guys...
If anyone else has had a good experience with a specific book, please let me know
I'm hesitant to do something so strong like permission to receive right now..

I'd strongly suggest Gateway to Judaism then by Rabbi Mordechai Becher. Has everything from philosophical to the extremely practical parts of Judaism.

tovasara

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 2:33 pm

There's a great shiur by Rabbi Leib Keleman on this. Look it up on torah Anytime. It may help you know how to answer her.

Zehava

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 2:56 pm

Teach her what she wants to learn. Don’t try to proselytize.

Amalia

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 3:07 pm

Dear OP,

Maybe you can ask this woman to do some research and then come up with a book that she wants to study with you, together? So then, she won’t feel it’s being imposed on her - it’s her choice what to learn - and at the same time, she’ll have the benefit of a knowledgeable person helping her get through it, fill in the blanks, explain things, etc.

Also, before you start learning with her, it may be a good idea for you to get in touch with someone who has extensive experience with working in kiruv - and is very good at working with people at their level, taking into account their personalities, preferences, backgrounds.

(Maybe a Chabad shliach or shlucha could be a good start, although everyone’s approach is different, because everyone’s personality is different.)

It would also be helpful for you to know the basics of your study partner’s background (without being nosy): is she American, for example?

amother

Chartreuse

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 3:10 pm

DrMom wrote:

Many people learn about other religions without a belief in the religion itself. A basic course in college would be Comparative Religion - as an example.

I am not sure what the purpose of the learning is but many people don't believe that the Bible, the Koran, the Torah etc. are G-d's words but still believe these works contain moral principles, great teachings and are worthy of study.

I realize it's not Orthodox but the majority of non-Orthodox Jews do not believe every word of the Torah or Bible is that of Hashem and therefore not literally true. Nor do the majority of Catholics or Protestants have this belief and yet many believe in G-d and that the Bible can still be a source of spiritual guidance and inspiration.

ETA - And obviously in a learning situation, it is appropriate to state that the Orthodox belief is that Hashem gave the Torah to his people. That's a statement of fact - not something one is attempting to get the other person to believe. It's no different than a X-tian explaining to me that J was resurrected on the third day or that he was the son of G-d. I don't share their beliefs but I have a basic understanding of their theology.

Seriously

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 8:29 pm

When I asked her what she wanted to learn she replied she wants to know about history and background and basics.
I offered to suggest a few books and have her choose what's most interesting or helpful to her.
She reached out to an organization that pairs up women and men to learn. So I'm def not proslethizing
She is from an Anglo country but south American family.

Thank you for the suggestion of rabbi bechers gatewAy to Judaism
Ill suggest that

Any other good basic books?

SpottedBanana

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 9:39 pm

Seriously wrote:

This list might be helpful to you: https://www.projectinspire.com.....ooks/

Seriously

Tue, Feb 06 2018, 9:50 pm

SpottedBanana wrote:

This list might be helpful to you: https://www.projectinspire.com.....ooks/

Ahh perfect!

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