Selling Chometz Question

thunderstorm

Sat, Feb 10 2018, 8:58 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Again, why "of course"? We sell all the kitchen cabinets, even though we clean it first. It would be very unlikely that any of the cabinets would contain actual chometz, I guess the reason we sell it is like seeker said - pesach is full of chumros on top of chumros.

And it's just in case you missed a spot etc.

5mom

Sat, Feb 10 2018, 8:59 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

"Of course" just because you have to sell something real. Closing a cabinet isn't the same as selling it. I think a lot of the confusion here comes from people colloquially saying they are selling pots, when in fact they need to be more precise.

I'm all in favor of chumros for Pesach, but if you get to a situation where you violate halacha (using a pot that you bought from a non-Jew without tevilah) you've lost more than you've gained.

Mommyg8

Sat, Feb 10 2018, 9:02 pm

5mom wrote:

I'm not sure why you think we have to sell something real. We are selling possible chometz, not pots (you don't have to toivel the pots afterwards).

Have you never heard of selling stock options? There's nothing tangible there, but it's still a valid sale.

5mom

Sat, Feb 10 2018, 9:14 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

For this sale, you need to sell something real. Some will sell chametz that has stuck to dishes, some will even sell chametz absorbed into dishes, but I think the majority pasken otherwise. There is a view that if you sell dishes to a non-Jew but he doesn't actually take them into his house, you don't need to tovel them. This is logical, but it might undermine the sale, because the non-Jew should be able to have access to whatever he bought.

I have, of course, heard of selling stock options (and air rights, and intellectual property etc) but selling chametz assumes a physical object. Originally, the chametz actually had to be physically moved into the possession of the non-Jewish buyer. Today that's not the case, but that's the premise.

Last edited by 5mom on Sat, Feb 10 2018, 9:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

Mommyg8

Sat, Feb 10 2018, 9:17 pm

5mom wrote:

For this sale, you need to sell something real. Some will sell chametz that has stuck to dishes, some will even sell chametz absorbed into dishes, but I think the majority pasken otherwise. There is a view that if you sell dishes to a non-Jew but he doesn't actually take them into his house, you don't need to tovel them. This is logical, but it might undermine the sale, because the non-Jew should be able to have access to whatever he bought.

I have, of course, heard of selling stock options (and air rights, and intellectual property etc) but selling chametz assumes a physical object. Originality, the chametz actually had to be physically moved into the possession of the non-Jewish buyer. Today that's not the case, but that's the premise.

I'm going to check this. Nobody I know sells anything real, and the Rabbonim seem to know this... will update.

JoyInTheMorning

Sun, Feb 11 2018, 9:15 am

To me, the only sensible way to interpret selling chametz in pots is to specify that you are including in the sale any possible chametz of some value that could be in a set of pots in a particular location. For example, you might have some uncooked rolled oats in a pot. So you're saying, "If there are things like rolled oats in the pot in the pantry closet, that is included in what I'm selling."

It really doesn't make sense to talk about selling chametz stuck to a pot that you haven't cleaned to super homemaker standards. That stuck-on stuff is so gross that no one in their right mind would buy it. Moreover, if indeed you are selling the chametz content and not the pot itself, the chametz content and the pot need to be easily separable, because otherwise it's a sale that can't be carried out. And stuck-on food by definition is not easily separable.

I know of absolutely no one who tovels their dishes after Pesach ...

amother

Aqua

Sun, Feb 11 2018, 9:56 am

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

Me neither. But I don't know anyone who claims to sell her pots. Your explanation sounds totally reasonable, and yet people keep talking about selling their dishes.