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-> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
keym
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 Thu, Feb 15 2018, 6:35 pm
| leah233 wrote: | | Twenty five years ago even in Lakewood, Lakewood Mesivta wasn't mainstream. The old time Lakewooders for the most part did not send their sons there. It was mostly Chasidim from Boro Park . |
True. 18 years ago (around) R Yitzchok Sorotzkin joined from Telshe Cleveland as a way to encourage more Litvacks.
A lot of Lakewood boys went out of town 30-40 yrs ago. Philly, Staten Island, Riverdale etc.
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Mommyg8
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Thu, Feb 15 2018, 6:37 pm
| leah233 wrote: | | Twenty five years ago even in Lakewood, Lakewood Mesivta wasn't mainstream. The old time Lakewooders for the most part did not send their sons there. It was mostly Chasidim from Boro Park . |
I'll check this, but no, I don't think so.
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amother
Ruby
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Thu, Feb 15 2018, 6:42 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | | Ruby, sorry, Lakewood Mesivta used to have a lighter schedule? Can you confirm that please? |
Lol, just ask any alumni over the age of 35
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Mommyg8
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Thu, Feb 15 2018, 6:46 pm
| amother wrote: | | Lol, just ask any alumni over the age of 35 |
OK, I will!
So, in your opinion, why do you think they changed?
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Mommyg8
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Thu, Feb 15 2018, 6:53 pm
Ok, keym, little neshamala, amother ruby, and amother gray, you have all convinced me! Now what? What can we do?
Ideas please!
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little neshamala
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Thu, Feb 15 2018, 6:59 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | Ok, keym, little neshamala, amother ruby, and amother gray, you have all convinced me! Now what? What can we do?
Ideas please! |
May I just publicly say, that I am very impressed with you. Not many people actually listen to the words of people arguing with them, and then admit theyve changed their mind. Something tells me you must be a good mother.
And I dont know what we can do...but id love to see something
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Notsobusy
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Thu, Feb 15 2018, 7:09 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | "um mommyg8, how do you know there is no texting on shabbos problem in "MO yeshivas or even Yeshivas that are slightly to the left..."? "
BECAUSE I just had a conversation, last week, with a group of boys from a yeshiva that is "slightly to the left". They told me that texting on Shabbos is a complete myth, no-one they know texts on Shabbos. Everyone loves to hear something shocking, no-one wants to hear boring stuff. So this myth is perpetuated.
Um... a yeshiva is a place of learning. No? A school is a place of learning. No? So what do boys do when they don't like school? I dunno - maybe shoot the teachers?
I have said it before, and I'll say it again, the boys who don't want to go to night seder are the same boys who are not learning first or second seder either. And if the boys don't enjoy learning - don't you think it's time to figure out what to do about that, rather than whine and be angry at the system?
I am talking about the yeshivish yeshivos. I don't know if we are talking about the same thing. But these yeshivos try very hard to make the boys enjoy learning. Sometimes a change of yeshivos can make a difference, just a suggestion. |
I haven't made it through the thread, I just keep getting more and more upset at what you're writing and I honestly can't read any more of it.
It is NOT TRUE that the boys who don't want to go to night seder are also not learning first or second seder. NOT TRUE! There are many boys who want to learn, but H-shem did not give them the zitzfleish to sit and learn for so many hours. These are good, yeshivish boys, from good yeshivish families. But they are not able to learn for so many hours. Because that's the way H-shem made them.
From a few of your posts on this thread you seem to think they should go to MO yeshivos?! What are you thinking? That is a totally different hashkafah, and that's not where they belong.
They belong in a yeshivish yeshiva with less hours. Most parents I know would rather their kids stay in the yeshivish community, and learn less hours, than get burnt out or frustrated from trying to learn too many hours and eventually leaving the yeshivish community.
| Quote: | | I know a few boys who couldn't stay through the day in yeshiva. They went to work. Or they hung out. Or they went to a "lighter" yeshiva. And surprise! They are all frum today. |
I'm thrilled that everyone you know who couldn't handle the yeshiva hours stayed frum, but there are many, many kids who didn't. And there are even more who are still frum but not remotely yeshivish. A lot of these boys would have stayed yeshivish if there were more flexible options in the yeshiva world. But there aren't any, so like other posters wrote, if you send your son to a less yeshivish yeshiva, it is almost for sure going to be a yeshiva for at risk kids.
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keym
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Thu, Feb 15 2018, 7:11 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | Ok, keym, little neshamala, amother ruby, and amother gray, you have all convinced me! Now what? What can we do?
Ideas please! |
Easy starter. Encourage our boys to have and develop a real hobby that could develop into something bigger. Woodwork, science, music etc. Dont discourage our bar mitzva age boys that theyre almost in mesivta its pas nisht. Encourage them even mesivta age.
Give them something else not just a gemara machine.
Thats my take.
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amother
Ruby
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Thu, Feb 15 2018, 7:13 pm
I'm impressed too. For what caused it? I think it was a combination of more of a good thing (if 10 hours of Torah is good, 12 is better! If 12 is good, 14 is better!) and the chumra-of-the-week culture. I think you also saw this with kollel. It used to be that the standard was learn for first five years of marriage, longer if you can but it was not the general expectation. Now you're supposed to learn indefinitely (or at least say you plan to).
As to what to do? Strictly on the mesivta issue, make night seder optional. Let the family decide if it works for them. BTW, I bet that even the boys who struggle with night seder may well go of their own volition sometimes, say once or twice a week, if given the choice.
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Notsobusy
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Thu, Feb 15 2018, 7:20 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | | Who is giving an opinion that a boy who is going to a school with less hours is a "bad crowd"? Not me. And this is, I think, the real problem, and this is why there are so few options, because everyone wants THEIR son to be in the TOP yeshiva. And they won't send Ch'v to a "lighter" yeshiva because it's a "bad" crowd. |
First of all, you said this: | Quote: | | I'm not naming them, because then they'll become labeled as "special ed" yeshivos, and I don't think that I want to do that. |
Second of all, whether or not you said it, it's a fact. In the yeshivish world, yeshivos that offer less hours or teach the kids a trade are geared towards kids at risk.
I have a friend dealing with this right now. Her son is a really, really good kid, who doesn't enjoy learning gemorah. He is amazing with a computer and would love to learn so computer courses. He's only in 9th grade, so they don't want to send him away from home. They did a lot of research and there is no local yeshiva that would be a good fit for him that doesn't cater to at risk kids. They put him in a less rigid yeshiva, which they had heard very good things about, unfortunately the kids there are not great kids.
I do believe that we have many great mechanchim running schools in Lakewood. The problem is that they all want to have the "BEST" yeshiva and they only want to attract the "best" boys who are "best" learners. So all the other best boys, who aren't also great learners are stuck with no where to go.
I'm so happy for you that your sons can handle the intense schedule. But you should know that there are many, many anguished parents who are crying because there is no good option for their sons. It's not that they don't want to send their sons to lesser yeshivas, it's that the less intense yeshivas have a different crowd and they don't want their sons to be influenced by those kids, who are usually at risk or on the verge of it. They want their sons to stay yeshivish within the capabilities that H-shem gave them.
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jkl
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Thu, Feb 15 2018, 7:21 pm
| Notsobusy wrote: | | I'm thrilled that everyone you know who couldn't handle the yeshiva hours stayed frum, but there are many, many kids who didn't. And there are even more who are still frum but not remotely yeshivish. A lot of these boys would have stayed yeshivish if there were more flexible options in the yeshiva world. But there aren't any, so like other posters wrote, if you send your son to a less yeshivish yeshiva, it is almost for sure going to be a yeshiva for at risk kids. |
If I would be able to press the like button 100 times, I would definitely do so.
What many overlook is the fact that Hashem created people differently, with different characteristics, different strengths and different weakness.. This current system is set up in a way that assumes people are all the same and the onus is on the boys who are not adapting.
If Hashem wanted us all to be the same, He would have created us as such. If he wanted us all to be cookie cutter copies of one another, He would have created only one path to serve Him. By enforcing a one way system for all, aren't we suggesting that we are being smarter than Him?
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Mommyg8
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Thu, Feb 15 2018, 7:22 pm
| amother wrote: |
As to what to do? Strictly on the mesivta issue, make night seder optional. Let the family decide if it works for them. BTW, I bet that even the boys who struggle with night seder may well go of their own volition sometimes, say once or twice a week, if given the choice. |
That's lovely, but are you the menahel of a yeshiva? We have to convince the menahalim, not imamothers! The question I had was, what can we do to bring awareness? That all the yeshivos should end earlier?
My son is in a yeshiva that has night seder, but ends much earlier. The boys are all happy, they learn nicely, etc. I like that model, and it works well.
But there is definitely room for a yeshiva for boys who can't handle a full day, and perhaps they can have a program at night, or just give them time to chill, instead of night seder.
The question is, since I don't have a yeshiva, and YOU don't have a yeshiva, what do we do now?
Just adding - that my son just told me that there is a yeshiva that just opened in Lakewood which has an easier schedule, and less hours. Just letting you all know.
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Notsobusy
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Thu, Feb 15 2018, 7:23 pm
| amother wrote: | I'm impressed too. For what caused it? I think it was a combination of more of a good thing (if 10 hours of Torah is good, 12 is better! If 12 is good, 14 is better!) and the chumra-of-the-week culture. I think you also saw this with kollel. It used to be that the standard was learn for first five years of marriage, longer if you can but it was not the general expectation. Now you're supposed to learn indefinitely (or at least say you plan to).
As to what to do? Strictly on the mesivta issue, make night seder optional. Let the family decide if it works for them. BTW, I bet that even the boys who struggle with night seder may well go of their own volition sometimes, say once or twice a week, if given the choice. |
An alte Telzer once told me that in Telshe in Cleveland you were only allowed to learn for 3 years after you got married. Anyone who wanted to learn for longer had to get special rishus from the roshei yeshiva. These days, in a yeshivish kollel you have to get special rishus to stop learning after only 3 years. What an upside-down system, and the sad thing is that people believe that this is how it always was.
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Mommyg8
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Thu, Feb 15 2018, 7:28 pm
| Notsobusy wrote: | | An alte Telzer once told me that in Telshe in Cleveland you were only allowed to learn for 3 years after you got married. Anyone who wanted to learn for longer had to get special rishus from the roshei yeshiva. These days, in a yeshivish kollel you have to get special rishus to stop learning after only 3 years. What an upside-down system, and the sad thing is that people believe that this is how it always was. |
Maybe things have changed a lot, but I remember that Rosh Yeshivos (and I can name names) would tell people to go to work. I don't know if it's that the Rosh Yeshivos are not doing that anymore, or is it that no one is listening to the Rosh Yeshivos? I'm really curious.
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jkl
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Thu, Feb 15 2018, 7:34 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | | Maybe things have changed a lot, but I remember that Rosh Yeshivos (and I can name names) would tell people to go to work. I don't know if it's that the Rosh Yeshivos are not doing that anymore, or is it that no one is listening to the Rosh Yeshivos? I'm really curious. |
It's the Rosh Yeshivas that are not doing it. Based on my experience, they literally tell the boys that the Kollel lifestyle is the only true and righteous path, and the other paths are to be considered only if life literally pushes them to the wall.
Once upon a time (as my father duly confirmed), the Rosh Yeshiva analyzed each bochur and offered him advice based on his strengths and weakness. Today, the same advice is repeated to all boys, personal differences notwithstanding.
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keym
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Thu, Feb 15 2018, 7:37 pm
In Lakewood its that the yeshiva is so big, the RY dont know any of the men. My husband joined BMG 15 years ago. He was interviewed by a bochen, accepted by the registrar, etc. He would say gut shabbos to the RY but it was part of a line. After 4 years in yeshiva, he wanted a kollel check, so he met with R Malkiel- first and only time and my husband learned in BMG for 9 years.
So no RY is telling him to go work if no RY is aware he Mr. Keym is learning in Bais Shalom 3rd row on the right in R Cohens chabura.
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amother
Magenta
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Thu, Feb 15 2018, 7:37 pm
| amother wrote: | Am I the only one disturbed by the way some of you are calling yeshiva graduates a 'product'?
No, I didn't send my kids to yeshivish yeshivas, and I am glad of it, if they are geared towards a 'finished product'. |
But isn't 'product' an apt description when you're creating assembly line outputs?
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Mommyg8
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Thu, Feb 15 2018, 7:42 pm
| keym wrote: | In Lakewood its that the yeshiva is so big, the RY dont know any of the men. My husband joined BMG 15 years ago. He was interviewed by a bochen, accepted by the registrar, etc. He would say gut shabbos to the RY but it was part of a line. After 4 years in yeshiva, he wanted a kollel check, so he met with R Malkiel- first and only time and my husband learned in BMG for 9 years.
So no RY is telling him to go work if no RY is aware he Mr. Keym is learning in Bais Shalom 3rd row on the right in R Cohens chabura. |
So basically, you're saying that everyone just follows the crowd. No-one asks their Rosh Yeshiva if they should stay or leave. Nobody asks any shaylos. They're all following each other off the cliff, if that's what it is.
Um... that sounds sad. Very sad.
I'm not against kollel. I just know that long term kollel is for yechidim, and it's sad that it's not acknowledged anymore. And even for yechidim - everyone has their time. I'm sorry, but this system is not good.
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jkl
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Thu, Feb 15 2018, 7:45 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | So basically, you're saying that everyone just follows the crowd. No-one asks their Rosh Yeshiva if they should stay or leave. Nobody asks any shaylos. They're all following each other off the cliff, if that's what it is.
Um... that sounds sad. Very sad.
I'm not against kollel. I just know that long term kollel is for yechidim, and it's sad that it's not acknowledged anymore. And even for yechidim - everyone has their time. I'm sorry, but this system is not good. |
People follow the crowd, because in our communities this is how their reputation is built. Their name, their shidduchim, their future life rests on their reputation. What choices do they have?
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Mommyg8
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Thu, Feb 15 2018, 7:49 pm
| jkl wrote: | | People follow the crowd, because in our communities this is how their reputation is built. Their name, their shidduchim, their future life rests on their reputation. What choices do they have? |
Guess what? That's a huge mistake. Do you think that a boy who is forced into a mold that doesn't fit is going to have great shidduch choices? Or do you think he will have a happy marriage? When will people realize, shidduchim is from Hashem? Who do you worship, G-d, or people? Just curious.
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