Are boys’ Yeshiva hours too long?

keym

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 7:52 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

So basically, you're saying that everyone just follows the crowd. No-one asks their Rosh Yeshiva if they should stay or leave. Nobody asks any shaylos. They're all following each other off the cliff, if that's what it is.

Um... that sounds sad. Very sad.

I'm not against kollel. I just know that long term kollel is for yechidim, and it's sad that it's not acknowledged anymore. And even for yechidim - everyone has their time. I'm sorry, but this system is not good.

No. The hope is that each young man develops a relationship with a Rosh Yeshiva, Maggid Shiur, or Mashgiach that he clivks with or gets inspired from. By the time a young man arrives in BMG, at 22-23, he usually has a Rebbe with whom he has a relationship that he discusses things with.
My husband's Rebbe was his mesivta and bais medrash RY. He was the one my husband discussed leaving kollel with.
Never with a RY of BMG.

jkl

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 8:02 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Guess what? That's a huge mistake. Do you think that a boy who is forced into a mold that doesn't fit is going to have great shidduch choices? Or do you think he will have a happy marriage? When will people realize, shidduchim is from Hashem? Who do you worship, G-d, or people? Just curious.

As long as the boys are toeing the line and are doing ok in yeshiva, who is aware of the inner struggles? Plenty of boys just push these years through, and only really grow into themselves once they're out of yeshiva and married. They play the game till they no longer have to. So many years are wasted. They could have amassed many life critical and crucial skills, that they are now forced to learn on the fly.

And what about those boys, who are just utterly exhausted from the intense schedule, by the time they're 21? They may have done a great job of learning and have a great reputation, but start married life already worn out and losing interest. What kind of marriage does that make?

amother

Gray

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 8:02 pm

Mommyg8, first of all Hug

, The first step we can take is to talk about it and Bring an awareness that the yeshiva system that brought us the 'product' that we really want is not what is going on today and dispel the myth that it's always been this way. Our 'nashim tzidkanios' can voice opinions against exclusion and exclusivity. Most of us have men in our extended family, who talk with other men.
I remember a long time ago there was a hot topic here that a writer for one of the popular Jewish publications used as inspiration and brought it to a wider audience. You never know what can happen. Little steps can bring big changes. That's how we got where we are now, maybe we can take it closer to how it was when it was more successful a little at a time.

If we on imamother can get through such a hot topic and debate & maintain respect and civility with each other while we feel so strongly there is hope yet.

Notsobusy

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 8:14 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

But on this whole thread, and in your pms to me, you are saying that we should force all our boys into the same mold, they all have to go to yeshivas with long hours, no matter how H-shem created them, regardless of what kochos they personally were given.

You just proved what everybody else has been saying all thread. Everybody is different, and we need yeshivas that cater to all different types of boys. Forcing all our boys into the same mold is destroying many of them!

naturalmom5

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 8:46 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Let me explain this clearly. The goal of a yeshivishe yeshiva is to create a serious yeshiva, serious learning man. The goal of the yeshivos you are describing (which is still not clear to me which ones they are, but ok) is obviously different. Perhaps they are preparing their boys for college, a career, to be a good person. That's ok, actually that's great! Good people are the best! But that's not the goal of a yeshivishe yeshiva. They are looking to create a finished product that is very different then the one that comes out of the yeshivos that you are describing. They are looking to create a yeshiva boy who comes out of this yeshiva with Torah, Torah, Torah.

It is pretty hard, almost impossible, to give gemarah homework for a boy to do at home. Gemarah, at least the way it is learned in these yeshivos, just doesn't work that way. So there is no way the scenario you are describing can happen.

As for more downtime - in a theoretical universe, boys will come home from yeshiva, have six hours of downtime, and use it productively. But we are not living in a theoretical universe, we are living in a real universe. And the menahalim of the yeshivos are working with reality, not the idealized vision of what, we, theoretically, would like to see.

This thread is really giving me a headache..

In your first paragraph you present your case. In your last paragraph, to use yeshivishe "sprok" (terminology), you shlug yourself up.
The bolded is as theoretical and non real world as it gets...

DVOM

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 8:56 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

What do high school girls do after school? Oh, dear. DVOM, call some mothers of high school girls, ask them what their girls do after school, and get back to this board. Hint: it's not chores.

No, high school boys seriously do not do the same things that elementary school boys do. I don't know why that is, but that's how it is. When my boys were younger, they spent time drawing, comics, reading, painting. Somehow, there's something that happens when they reach 13, I don't know why that is....

Also, my elementary school boys have about an hour of discretionary time, max. Not six hours.

I'm assuming that the menahalim of the yeshivos have experience in these things. I'm also assuming that they think this schedule works well. I guess that's why the're creating this schedule. Just a wild guess.

ETA: I don't have high school girls, but Squishy posted on another thread her high school daughter's schedule. You might find it illuminating.

[u]

Sounds to me that 'what happens' is they start high school and are told by word and by action that THE ONLY productive thing they can do with their time is learn Torah. And then all their free time is taken away from them. The parts of their brains that draw, and read, and paint, and daydream, and write, and make up games and stories and songs slowly atrophy and die away. Sad

Mommyg8

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 9:00 pm

Notsobusy wrote:

No, both on this thread AND in my pm's to you, I said that some boys may need a different type of yeshiva, one that is not so yeshivish. There are choices, there are yeshivos that are not the RW stereotype, etc. If they find that gemarah does not speak to them, they will have to go OUT of the yeshivish system, and find a yeshiva that does not concentrate on gemarah. That's a fact. I also said, earlier upthread, that it's important to find out WHY a boy doesn't like gemarah, and get help, if needed, to get him to like gemarah.

You can't have a yeshivish yeshiva that does not concentrate on gemarah. It's just an oxymoron. It's a contradiction. It's something that is just not going to happen.

Notsobusy

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 9:06 pm

DVOM wrote:

B"H my son is proof that those parts of their brains don't atrophy and die away. He is a big learner, but he still loves to read and draw and play music. Unfortunately he doesn't have the time to play at 9pm. So I'll find him playing music at one in the morning, instead of sleeping.

Mommyg8

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 9:12 pm

amother wrote:

I can guess why some boys don't like gemara. Same reason lots of people don't like lots of things. They are not good at it yet. They still need to be handed the tools to build the skill set.

Thank you, amother gray. That is exactly what I was trying to say. Another reason why some boys don't like gemarah is because they don't have chashivus for it. Gemarah is hard, it's hard work. If they are getting the message that it's not important - why should they bother?

Notsobusy

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 9:14 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Why should a boy who otherwise is fully a part of the yeshivish system, have to leave it just because he doesn't enjoy learning gemarah for hours and hours and hours of his day. I never said he doesn't want to learn at all, he just wants to also learn other things. He doesn't need help getting to like gemarah.

He needs, and so do a lot of other boys, a yeshiva within the yeshivish framework, in which he can learn other things. The yeshiva community is not only about learning gemarah. It's about haskafah, it's about a whole way of life. If the only issue he has is the many long hours of gemarah learning then he shouldn't have to leave his community.

The yeshiva community has to start catering to ALL of it's boys, not just the big learners, or it will continue losing more and more boys. While it's not so terrible if they're not yeshivish, a lot of them will drop more than just they yeshivishness, plenty will drop their whole yiddishkeit.

It's the people and the yeshivos who think you can only be part of the yeshivish community if who are a great learner are the ones who are causing these kids to go off.

amother

Blush

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 9:15 pm

DVOM wrote:

There is a natural progression from childhood to adolescence when a child’s interests in making up games & stories , daydreaming , painting etc slowly wane . Please don’t blame this wholly on the Yeshiva system .

keym

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 9:15 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

We are talking about 9th grade, not married men. They are still "tasting the sweetness". Even in the RW yeshivish velt 7-7 (12 hours) is plenty.
My dream yeshiva btw has
1) kodesh 9-4, chol 4-7. Ninth grade go home, 10th night seder 7-8, 11th grade night seder 7-8:45, 12th grade night seder 7:30-9:30.
3) no 1 1/2 hr lunch break to go off campus and buy pizza. Instead the whole day is 1-1 1/2 hour learning interspersed with 15-20 min sports breaks.
4) really good food
5) pool available with swimming optional twice/week
6) extracurricular available- tutoring elementary school age boys for money, hobbyshop etc 1-2 times a week)

In other words work hard, play hard, tight leash and learn hard. And more importantly develop the desire to learn.
For regular boys, not struggling boys.

Notsobusy

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 9:17 pm

amother wrote:

I can guess why some boys don't like gemara. Same reason lots of people don't like lots of things. They are not good at it yet. They still need to be handed the tools to build the skill set.

Very true. But if you try to force someone to spend hours doing something that they aren't good at or don't enjoy, they won't start liking it more, they'll start liking it less.

And right now, when they're still not good at it, they probably don't want to get better at it, because it's being shoved down their throats for hours and hours and they don't have a choice. Our yeshivas are telling them to either learn for hours, or leave. Many of them just leave.

If we would give those kids who need it, a chance to learn how to like it, less of them would choose to leave.

amother

Ruby

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 9:25 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Keym, littleneshamala, amother gray, and amother ruby, I would love to discuss this more. Is there a way we can have a productive discussion? Do you think there is something we can do? Let's brainstorm together.

I actually agree that it's not necessarily the focus on Gemara that's the problem (OT, but I find it rather amusing when I tell my husband about something shocking in Tanach and he's just speechless. Because he never really learned much Tanach, just Gemara). It's spending 14 hours a day in school. Most adults don't even spend that much time at work. You can still have that learning and focus, but there needs to be room to live life too. If anything, the boys who struggle to keep pace with the schedule would learn better the rest of the day if they had the option to take the night off. If the motivation is that boys need to be well-rounded, then you have a point that there is a hashkafic difference going on. And yes, that's my main beef, which is why I'm part of what they call here on imamother JPF rather than yeshivish. I do see value in being well-rounded. I respect that it is not a yeshivish value and that's ok, I don't think the yeshivish world needs to change their core values. But for many, they DO have the yeshivish hashkafah but simply can't handle the expectations as they are now. And it doesn't mean they have a disorder or are at risk. It means that the expectations really aren't feasible for many, maybe even most kids.

I would also recommend letting boys choose whether to go b'iyun or bekius. Yes, the point is to get to b'iyun, it's a large part of the yeshivishe hashkafah. But if a boy is struggling with Gemara, let him finish a masechta. He will work on the more basic skills until he's ready, but also feel the sense of accomplishment that comes from completing the masechta. That can be easier for many kids to appreciate, especially the ones who aren't getting it as quickly.

Mommyg8

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 9:33 pm

amother wrote:

I have already agreed with you about less hours. We were discussing solutions, remember? Can we brainstorm?

As for bekiyus, there is already at least one yeshiva in Lakewood that learns that way.

amother

Gray

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 9:35 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I agree with you too that gemarah requires intense mental gymnastics and is tiring.

I personally have a dislike of the yeshivish trendy term "chashivus". My personal preference taken from the idea of using honey to teach the א'ב'. In my ideal way, the lens used would be giving over the love and appreciation and how fortunate we are and blessed to have the Torah, and we really want to know all the wisdom inside that are a gift to us.

You might mean that but that word and how it's used sometimes gets me. But I have never met in these circles parents who have given over an attitude of "why bother". But it could just be that I never met them.