IVF for gender selection

amother

Rose

Tue, Feb 20 2018, 2:49 pm

happyone wrote:

The only ethical reason to do gender selection is where gender related genetic ilness is involved. In cases of dominant genes and some x linked disorders it's commonly done.
IvF isn't simple halachically, financially and emotionally.

Ethical according to who???? You? What makes you the Ethicist?
In our society, boys are very much revered and girls will always be on the women's side.

For the rest of my life I will be alone on my side of the mechitza. Every time I'm in shul, I will have no little girl next to me. I will have to wait for grandchildren to IYH buy a dress for a little girl. Just typing this is making me cry. Who are you??? There are father-son and mother-daughter activities. There are no mother-son activities. Do you know how that makes me feel? Every time the shul posts another mother-daughter night out? Painting, cooking, brunch at school, whatever?!!? It's painful.

My friend who has only girls is also pained, because of how much boys are revered in our culture.

I bet you have both boys and girls, because clearly, you have no idea how other people feel.

tichellady

Tue, Feb 20 2018, 3:13 pm

simba wrote:

What is the everything else you are referring to?

We don’t just say “ this must be Gd’s will; I accept it wholeheartedly!”

Infertile couples use ivf, people with cancer do chemotherapy etc, children who are not growing get hormone therapy. We embrace modern medicine and believe that Gd is ok with us using it to change the status quo. I don’t see why this is different. Yes, I understand thay only having sons or daughters is not the same as having cancer or being childless, but if someone is willing to go through the discomfort and $ to have a child of the opposite gender, who am I to tell that their need is silly? It’s not something I would do, but that doesn’t make it wrong

happyone

Tue, Feb 20 2018, 3:19 pm

amother wrote:

I won't bother responding with my personal experience. You are clearly in pain. Asking this question in a public forum will bring you many different views , some off which you may find hard to hear. This wasn't meant to be offensive in any way . This is an actual "psak" from a prominent rav.

...
Wishing you lots of luck.

elisheva25

Tue, Feb 20 2018, 3:55 pm

Forget about cost... which are like 20k
Think this way.... You are pumping your body up with hormones that your body doesn’t need
It’s not a walk in the park
Also what doctor would do IVF just to get you the gender you want ?
What Rav would give a heter ?
And you do realize it doesn’t always work !!!
Plenty of people have failed IVf cycles

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Feb 20 2018, 4:03 pm

tichellady wrote:

Those examples are very different from wanting to choose a gender. Those are medical things that one is getting medical treatments to fix. Choosing a gender is NOT a medical condition.
And while someone may be sad that they have one gender, sometimes thats life. Gosh, I have one child. I would love to have more, but up until now, thats what hashem has given me and thats life. Does it suck big time? Yes, not gonna lie, but we dont play god for things that are decided by god.

smileyfaces

Tue, Feb 20 2018, 4:05 pm

According to my posek (who paskins for fertility shailos) if you are anyways doing ivf it is ok to select a gender.
I asked when we did ivf and this is what I was told.
And yes, I think it’s morally ok in my situation. At the time, we had 1 child (girl) and we have a very severe diagnoses and I didn’t know if I would be able to have more children and if I would, how many I can have. Bh since they I had a girl and a boy.
It’s not ok for everyone, and I would never consider it if I was able to conceive naturally.

amother

Turquoise

Tue, Feb 20 2018, 4:06 pm

simba wrote:

According to my Rov you need a heter to do IVF. I don't know if a Rov would give a heter if this is the reason for it.

Do people truly continue having more children for the sole reason of hoping to have one of another gender and be mekayem the mitzva? Not mocking, just wondering as it seems weird to me. You do what you can and Hashem will choose the gender. There is an element of playing God with this.

Yes. My clock is ticking and I only have of one gender. We decided we will try one more last time so my DH could fulfill this Mitzvah. That was our reason for conceiving even though we thought we were done.

goodmorning

Tue, Feb 20 2018, 4:20 pm

amother wrote:

Have you ever heard of anyone doing IVF with PGD for gender selection in order to fulfill peru urevu, if they have a few kids already of he same gender?

Do you think its moral? Ethical? Halachically okay? Why or why not?

Just to point out, there are poskim who are of the opinion that having children through IVF does not fulfill the mitzvah of pru urvu.

If you are actually considering this for halachic reasons, you may want to consider that fact. Of course, it has no bearing on wanting to have both genders for any other reasons. (And to be clear, there are plenty of poskim who pasken that it is a fulfillment of pru urvu.)

tichellady

Tue, Feb 20 2018, 5:45 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I agree that it’s not a medical condition but why is it ok to play Gd sometimes and not other times?

pesek zman

Tue, Feb 20 2018, 5:57 pm

goodmorning wrote:

There are poskim that hold that IVF children don't count towards pru U'rvu?

That took my breath away. To think if I ever I'm blessed that my next cycle works, and it's the opposite gender that I have, I (still) won't fullfill the mitzvah that I beg Hshem to help me fulfill every single day?

What's the reason the posek gives?

amother

Cerise

Tue, Feb 20 2018, 7:06 pm

amother wrote:

There are many complicated Halachic questions involved in IVF. IVF is almost universally accepted by Rabbis as permissible for couples unable to conceive a child naturally. It's done according to specific guidelines to minimize Halachic problems. To put a woman's body through everything IVF entails and to use Halachic loopholes Rabbis permit for the purpose of allowing a couple to have children just to choose gender seems completely unethical to me.

So you and the other poster don’t think it’s okay halachically. That doesn’t mean it’s unethical.

amother

Green

Tue, Feb 20 2018, 7:19 pm

amother wrote:

I'm sorry, but no. I had my first girl when I was over 40. And both my grandmother and my mother-in-law have only boys. They survived. Happily. And they thanked Hashem that they had healthy children.

Was I pained when I heard my friends shopping for girls stuff, when I heard about siddur plays and mother-daughter nights out? It was slightly unpleasant. Painful? Hurtful? A bit dramatic.

amother

Jade

Wed, Feb 21 2018, 12:46 am

amother wrote:

Yes you can choose the gender while doing IVF - for example, there are diseases that only show up in boys, so there are people that have had sick babies, realized their genetic issues and went on to have healthy babies with the aid of IVF. You can choose relations, and it's mostly legal. There is another thing you can do that's not through IVF, it's where you spin the sperm and then implant only the ones you want. That's not legal in the US though. You can do it in EY or somewhere in South America.

And, for those who think it's horrible, I had a lot of fertility issues. I never went to IVF but I did a lot of other invasive things for a long time.

I have 4 of the same gender. I desperately want one of the other. It really kills me at times. but I'm 40 and I would have to do a lot of invasive techniques to get pregnant. Please don't judge other people. You don't know what's going on.

You seem to have a lot of deep, hurt feelings.
No one understands your pain unless they have been in your shoes.
When you have such a pain it seems on the outside that the people with children of both genders without fertility issues have it better than you.
Trust me, people are dressed up for Purim all the time. They are facing different heartwrenching struggles.
Using IVF for a specific gender if you are blessed with children can often translate into doing work that belongs to HAshm. And what if the desired gender child proofs to be a hell raising
kid? A kid who gives his parents hell on earth? What happens at that point? Can the parent s live peacefuuly ever after? Will the parents not be tormented souls? Is it worth it?

amother

Jade

Wed, Feb 21 2018, 12:50 am

pesek zman wrote:

Dont give yourself headaches that you dont need to have. Hopefully you will have beautiful child.
Please worry about all the other mitzvos you can do every minute of the day.
We all have our tikun. We all get the opportunity to do the mitzvos our neshama is meant to do.

Raisin

Wed, Feb 21 2018, 5:33 am

This is a tough one. On the one hand, societies where it is common to do gender selection (mostly via the cheaper method of ultrasound and then aborting unwanted genders) eg India, China tend to end up with a huge imbalance of genders. In those two cases many many more boys then girls. This causes huge societal problems. Who do these excess men marry? What do bored, unmarried men do?

But I do see the point of someone who has several boys or several girls and desperately wants the other gender. I have both boys and girls bh and I am so thankful for them both. I would be especially sad if I had only boys, and my husband would probably feel the same if we had only girls. I can't see doing IVF to choose gender though. Money is one issue, halacha another. If you are already doing IVF its likely less problematic.

I also think this type of gender selection is less likely to cause the above gender imbalance. Although people may feel that boys are preferred in the frum world I don't find that to be the case in reality. My husband is probably a pretty conservative type person but loves his daughters and was not (openly) perturbed when had 2 girls first. He was thrilled, even more so that we didn't have to deal with the stress of shalom zachor and a bris. (we wouldn't have done a pidyan haben either way)

btdivorcedmom

Wed, Feb 21 2018, 10:02 am

I have not read the whole thread. My response is based only on OP.

OP, whoever is considering, or even just having thoughts, of doing elective IVF procedure (meaning, able to conceive by other means without IVF), should educate themselves thoroughly on the process . Meaning, not just general statements like "use of injectable hormones, transfer, retrieval", but the actual details and ramifications of what's being done, step by step, as well as fees, and statistics on success rate based on one's age (being fertile does not guarantee success rate with IVF, not even close). After that thorough investigation, if that person still feels it's for them, feel free to ask a shailah if it's kosher. Most likely than not, it won't be a shailah anymore.

amother

Peach

Wed, Feb 21 2018, 10:16 am

goodmorning wrote:

So a couple who is struggling with infertility won’t get the mitzva by doing IVF? I find that disturbing. They went through double the amount of time energy work and pain to conceive a child through ivf.

Mommyg8

Wed, Feb 21 2018, 10:17 am

I think this kind of question reminds of the story "The Monkey's Paw". If you have not read it, it's a story about someone who got this magic monkey's paw that you get whatever you wish for, however, it comes with a sting in the tail. A large sting. In this story, they asked for a lot of money, they got it but - it came from the life insurance after the death of their child. Their only child.

I have seen in a sefer that it is important to know what to daven for, as if you daven for the wrong thing, it can have unintended consequences, ch'v. If we have to be careful about davening, imagine how much more careful we have to be about something like this. Do we know the future? Do we know if something we wish for will ultimately be good for us?

I read this story about Rav Aharon Kotler, that he asked the Chofetz Chaim for a bracha to have more children. He had two children - a boy and a girl. The Chofetz Chaim answered that he would never give such a bracha as we don't know the future and we don't know how the children will turn out. This is not exactly the same thing, but the idea behind it is the same, I think.

Speaking as someone who had only one gender for many years.