should I bring my baby?

PinkandYellow

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 4:50 pm

let me preface by saying, I'm not sure this is the right place for this topic adn if you need to bash me, please do so gently.

I go to a weekly shiur. very often (although not always) an older woman comes taht doesn't have kids. I know she married late in life and haven't the foggiest if she is trying or not, I haven't a clue as to how old she is. I always bring my baby with me to the shiur. as it is, I rarely go anywhere without her, I just don't see why I should leave her. I'm usually out for 3 hours and its definitely not fair for me to ask dh to watch her for all this time. tonite, at the shiur, she made a comment to me- oh, your husband wasn't able to watch the baby? and honestly, I don't want him to.
is it wrong for me to bring her to the shiur?

amother

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 5:26 pm

I know that it always bothered me when people bring their kids to shiurim or events. I just don't think it is appropriate. Many times there are people that go out (leaving behind a house full of children) to escape crying babies and aren't interested in spending that precious time there with someones else's child and there are also though that are going through infertility where every child they see reminds them of their own lacking. Imagine each woman brought their child, what kind of shiur would it be?

MommyLuv

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 8:49 pm

I feel sorry for this woman but I don't think you need to worry about offending her. It's not like you're doing anything wrong. Young babies need to be with their mothers.

She might not understand why your baby needs to be with you, but if it's working out otherwise and baby is happy and not distracting others from learning, then IMO it shouldnt be a big deal.

If you want to be extra sensitive, you can walk out to soothe the baby once she starts to cry.

BTW, for what's it's worth, I used a sling to carry my daughter in adult surroundings like weddings, shul, parties etc and I found it was easier to keep her happy and quiet with it, than if I were holding her in my arms.

Seraph

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 2:02 am

Lani22 wrote:

I would ask the rebbetzin if it bothers her. if not then I see no reason not to bring her.

The rebbetzin and host of the shiur both say "Nursing babies are welcome."

Another thing to add-
MDM and I come to this shiur every week. But only for the past short while. (Me, a few months, MDM, the past month or so.) And this lady comes occasionally, but on and off for the past few years.
So I may end up leaving the baby home and this woman doesnt even end up coming.

Seraph

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 2:04 am

Mama Bear wrote:

I think you can take her, and quietly ask the woman if she minds. Most women that age have gotten used to the fact taht the world is a child oriented place. It's not specifically a shiur about infertility.

we know this woman minds. (And she lets us know that as well, because she's not so socially 100% in addition to her infertility issues, so she will be blunt about her likes and dislikes.) And what if she says yes- not bring the baby even if thats what we need to do?

HindaRochel

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 3:34 am

It is not unfair of you to ask your dh to watch your baby for three hours, but that isnt' the way you wish to raise your child and that is fine. Therefore you have a choice to go to the shiur with your baby or not go at all.

If either the host or the speaker objected to the presence of a baby/child you should not bring your child and not go, and find a different social/intellectual outlet.

But they don't care. Nursing babies are in fact permitted.

Therefore you aren't wrong in bringing the child.

Take your child out if she cries and isn't comforted rather quickly, ie,a minutes time. If she is quite upset you can leave the room, get her connected, assuming that is the issue, and come back. If something else is bothering her and she keeps crying for more than five minutes, then recognize it is time to head home.

We should be sensitive to others emotions and feelings, but that doens't mean we need to hide life from them. She doesnt' have children and that is sad, but that is life. You don't have to shove a child in her face and go on and on about how wonderful it is to be a mother with her, but neither does anyone need to hide the fact that they have children.

Tamiri

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 6:16 am

I think Breslov wrote that the Rebbetzin said babies are welcome. I don't think I missed anything in her quote "The rebbetzin and host of the shiur both say "Nursing babies are welcome." .
So that, to me, means: as long as these are babies (up to what age? I would say 5 months or so) who are nursing (they don't get bottles or anything any other night of the week and rely solely on mommy), they are welcome by the hosts of that shiur.
And if any participant has any problem with someone bringing a baby, let her take it up with whoever is running the show. Don't get into a discussion with her, just smile and walk away and if there are questions about your attending with a baby, direct them to the powers that be.
I don't agree with leaving a nursing baby for that amount of time, unless you know for sure that baby will be asleep.
You DO have to make sure that baby is unobtrusive and does not disturb the shiur, but I guess that it obvious.
Personally, I don't think I ever left one of my nursing babies before they were six months old. Just couldn't.

shalhevet

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 8:18 am

I totally agree with Tamiri, and some other posters above. I think the only person who should be able to decide on the policy is the woman hosting/giving the shiur.

Not only that, but those who don't want a baby at a shiur might not only be women who have not had children, but those who bottle fed and don't understand why a nursing baby should need to come, those who wanted an evening out without babies and pumped milk so that they could leave their own baby with a sitter and don't see why everyone else shouldn't do the same, and grandmothers who have forgotten what having a baby is.

It should be up to the shiur giver/organizer to decide and then if she decides no, those with nursing babies will have to choose whether to come to the shiur and leave their baby, or if she decides yes, those who are bothered by it can take it or leave it.

So, if the woman giving the shiur has said nursing babies welcome, that's how the shiur is, and now it's everyone's choice if they want to come under those conditions.

BTW, mods, I think this thread should be moved to another section, because of the direction it has moved in, even though I understand why it was originally posted here.

Mama Bear

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 10:54 am

breslov wrote:

Mama Bear wrote:

If this woman minds that there is a baby at the shiur, then with all due respect, it is not fair to be hurting her. I would be extremely upset before I had my son if a small baby was brought to a shiur. Maybe this is the woman's only outlet to get out, meet people, and be in a baby-free environment?

I didnt know this woman minds. That really changes the situation.

Tamiri

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 2:33 pm

[quote="Mama Bear"]

I didnt know this woman minds. That really changes the situation.[/quote]

The "rules of the house" state: nursing babies welcome soL

(1) Whoever does not like the rules can ask to have them changed by those in charge or
(2) They can stop coming to this permissive shiur.

Why does someone without a baby, for whatever reason, have the right to dictate the rules for someone who does? Is having a baby a reason to be punished? Does someone with a baby have to bury herself in the house? Why does someone with a baby have to be more sensitive than someone without one? I don't understand. This specific shiur is a place where women with nursing babies are welcome and everyone else has to abide by that rule.

For the record, I don't think that the woman without children is specifically complaining about the baby, she probably has "issues" and is taking them out on the easiest target: a sensitive new mother.

shalhevet

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 2:57 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

breslov wrote:

Mama Bear wrote:

I don't think so. I hope no-one is upset by my comments, because I don't think they belong in the infertility section, but that's where this thread is.

MDM and breslov didn't say they go up to this woman, shove their baby in her face and say - you'll never guess what a cute thing s/he did this week. They come to the shiur to hear the shiur, and the practicality of being a nursing mother is that it can take you three hours to get ready to go out and leave your nursing baby and spend the whole time worrying that they're crying and won't take the bottle. (MB, with all due respect, you were never a nursing mother so maybe you don't know the practicalities. May Hashem give you many more babies and may He help you nurse them.)

I'm sorry. I think women should be careful not to cause others pain, but they can't stop their lives to do so. I have someone close to me in her mid-thirties and unmarried and I know it is very painful to her when she hears cousins who she remembers when they were born, getting engaged. Should they not get married because it will cause her pain? OTOH, I don't think someone like that has to phone someone up and ask her advice which wedding gown to choose. I'm sorry, but mothers cannot stop going to shops and parks, shiurim and meetings with their children because other people may be in pain. Maybe pregnant women also shouldn't be allowed at this shiur? I hear her pain, and I feel terrible for her, but other people also have to run their lives.