should I bring my baby?

HindaRochel

Sun, Nov 11 2007, 10:56 am

Clarissa wrote:

Tamiri wrote:

As a wise person once said: "Life happens". You can't put the world on hold.

I have my own quote from a very wise person:

"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion."

Compassion yes. But a mother shouldn't have to hide her child as if it were a disease. This isn't walking into a fertility clinic with six kids in tow and proclaiming loudly how easy it is to have a child! This would be the equivalent of going into a clothing store and demanding all sleeved outfits be thrown out because one is without arms. Or admoinishing people with arms not to point but to indicate something wiht head or legs.

It would be easy enough to set up a child free shiur. The other woman, if she wanted to, could find or encourage to be made a child free class. She could talk to the Rebbitizn about how disconcerting it was for her to have a young child come to the class, that it made it hard to concentrate, but she really enjoyed the Shiur and could she arrange for a child free shiur once a week? Perhaps she could even host such an event.

There are many shiurim where children aren't welcome. Limited would be the number where they were welcome. Since this is at a persons house btw, would the hostess need to toss her children out for the duration? Her grandkids?

This all reminds me a bit about the science fiction story where mediocrity was the end goal of society, so no one would feel upset that someone was smarter, more agile, better looking, stronger etc. than they were.

There are a lot of things that I wish for that can't be. I sing like a crow...a sick crow with a sore throat whose voice is cracking due to puberty. I am probably one of the few moms whose children, by age two, ask her nicely not to sing. Yes that is quite different than a woman who is barren, and compassion must be had. But it doesn't mean hiding ones children. It means listening and caring and not going on and on about ones child when the person wants to speak of something else.

creativemommyto3

Sun, Nov 11 2007, 2:14 pm

That wouldn't last very long.

When I had my first and my then childless bil and sil were at the shalom zachor, my dh was so tired that he was so kvetchy. I thought it was horrible that they gave him mussar on how they would love to be in his shoes. That didnt take away from the tiredness that he had. he couldn't keep his eyes open!

Eventhough I do have children, I had a hyserectomy at age 27 when most of my friends are having them all the time. Should I never go to a neshei or a shiur b/c of that. No way! in my opinion , this woman should be mature enough to realize that due to her late marriage she might not have such an easy time having kids.

to top it off, my aunt is a fertility specialist and guess what, she herself did not get pregnant until the age of 46!!!! Does that mean she should have stopped helping the world get pregnant b/c she couldn't. She is one of the best in Israel. She wasn't about to quit her job just b/c it hurt.

PinkandYellow

Sun, Nov 11 2007, 2:16 pm

checking back in. 1st of all, its not true that I decided what to do before posting. I was interested in hearing if there was another opinion which is why I posted in the if section. to get the other side's view.
Its not so poshut for me to leave the baby with dh. I did it once and for a lot of time she was crying hysterically, he was calling me, she finally took the bottle, but was still crying. I ended up rushing home and felt like the whole thing was a waste. it might be better now that she's older.
I hear the two sides- it's within my rights to bring the baby but if possible, it would be nice not to. and of course, this woman doesn't have to attend if she doesn't find it "ba'taam" for whatever reasons.
DH asked his rav and he said- I'm definitely allowed to bring the baby, if it works better and easier for me I should, and even more then that, maybe the rebbetzin or host should say again that its baby-friendly.
So, I've decided that this is what I'll try to do. for the next shiur, I will feed the baby as if I'm leaving her (if possible) and before I leave for the shiur, I'll call the host and find out if this woman is there (she's usually on time, I'm usually a few minutes late). if she's not there I'll bring the baby. if she is there I will leave baby with dh and then we'll see how it goes. if baby, dh or I find it very hard, I will bring baby for future shiurim, comfortable with the thought that at least I tried. more then that I don't think I can/want to do.

amother

Sun, Nov 11 2007, 3:28 pm

Clarissa wrote:

People used to bring their young children to morning monitoring at my fertility clinic, and you could just see the pain on some peoples' faces. One time, the only time, I had to bring my older kid (and this was after being in treatment for years and always figuring out a way to not bring him), I kept him quietly hidden in the hallway with my husband. The nurse said, "hey, why is he out there? It wouldn't bother anybody, I promise it's absolutely fine." But I knew differently. I knew that the woman across from me in the waiting room might have suffered a miscarriage that week, another woman may have been told it was hopeless for them to try, etc. I know this isn't the same situation as a baby-friendly shiur, but my point is that, even when we're told babies are welcome, we sometimes go the extra mile just to be extra-protective of someone's feelings.

Maybe it's time for OP to weigh in and say what she's thinking? After all, there have been many posts on both sides of the argument.

amother with sec IF here
Clarrissa how can you compare a fertility clinic with a baby friendly shiur?

Mama Bear wrote:

Look Breslov and MDM; I told you that I changed my thinking around, after I realzied that this was a specifically baby friendly shiur and it was the childless woman's responsibility to decide if she feels comfortable staying or not. I am not telling you to leave your baby home.

I'm just trying to shake up the attitudes of the posters here a little; to realize that it's not as simple as "too bad that you dont have kids, the world can't stop." It's a lot, lot deeper than that.

so then why did you continue arguing with the women like myself that kept pointint out that its a BABY FRIENDLY SHIUR

I repeated time and time again that if it was specifically not welcome to babies she shouldnt' bring hers, I repeated time and time again that to a place for infertile women like Clarissa described its inappropriate to bring kids yet you still took issue with my posts.

I get the feeling posters here don't really READ what they respond to. they get a bee up their bonnet and have to push whats on their mind regardless of what the other person is really saying

Clarissa

Sun, Nov 11 2007, 3:33 pm

amother wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

I know this isn't the same situation as a baby-friendly shiur, but my point is that, even when we're told babies are welcome, we sometimes go the extra mile just to be extra-protective of someone's feelings.
.

Clarrissa how can you compare a fertility clinic with a baby friendly shiur?

I get the feeling posters here don't really READ what they respond to. they get a bee up their bonnet and have to push whats on their mind regardless of what the other person is really saying

Let's see, I believe I said:

I know this isn't the same situation as a baby-friendly shiur

Hmm, I totally agree with you! I sometimes get the feeling posters here don't even read those posts and they get a bee in their bonnet, just to push what's on their mind! Drives me crazy.

Last edited by Clarissa on Sun, Nov 11 2007, 3:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

Clarissa

Sun, Nov 11 2007, 3:37 pm

amother wrote:

I know you said that but I still don't think its the right place to bring up that example and compare.
you seem to have been maintaining unless I'm mistaken that OP shouldn't bring her baby to the shiur and are bringing a fertility clinic to compare and prove your point and I think its completely incomparable .

That's all I have to see about my post. You don't think it's applicable, that's fine. I think everything has been said that needs to be said. Correction, ten times what needs to be said, and I'm as guilty of this as anyone. Although I will say, to my credit, that I didn't hide behind "amother" to make my point, again and again.

amother

Sun, Nov 11 2007, 5:32 pm

About bringing a baby to an IF clinic, I am a SIFer who generally has tried to be sensitive to this issue, but one time had to bring my child (who was about 15 months at the time) with me to an ENDOCRINE appointment (which, unfortunately they had in the same office as the RE department, which I did not know before I came) and felt so embarassed.

But what was I supposed to do? The hospital childcare was full, and my DH had to work. I couldn't leave my baby at home?

I just hope that everyone was dan l'kaf zchus that I had no choice.

amother

Tue, Dec 04 2007, 2:40 pm

My opinion and I am posting as amother cuz I am not in the mood of bashing: I think that women going thru IF are the most sensative group I have ever come across. what about all the cancer patients, imagine a mother whos child is in the hospital hooked up to chemo the pain she has seeing healthy children, does she expect the world to hide them wherever she goes? or the child off the derech, or the family struggling to put bread on the table, the depressed husband, etc etc enough tzar to fill pages.
is IF the biggest struggle or any opinions as to why these women are so sensitive to other familys children?

momluv

Tue, Dec 04 2007, 2:45 pm

Tamiri wrote:

I think Breslov wrote that the Rebbetzin said babies are welcome. I don't think I missed anything in her quote "The rebbetzin and host of the shiur both say "Nursing babies are welcome." .
So that, to me, means: as long as these are babies (up to what age? I would say 5 months or so) who are nursing (they don't get bottles or anything any other night of the week and rely solely on mommy), they are welcome by the hosts of that shiur.
And if any participant has any problem with someone bringing a baby, let her take it up with whoever is running the show. Don't get into a discussion with her, just smile and walk away and if there are questions about your attending with a baby, direct them to the powers that be.
I don't agree with leaving a nursing baby for that amount of time, unless you know for sure that baby will be asleep.
You DO have to make sure that baby is unobtrusive and does not disturb the shiur, but I guess that it obvious.
Personally, I don't think I ever left one of my nursing babies before they were six months old. Just couldn't.

I agree with tamiri!

Mama Bear

Tue, Dec 04 2007, 3:49 pm

amother,a person sturggling withinfertility is in such emotional pain she simplycannot see beyond her pain. Now that I am BH blessed I look back and cant believe whatI put mymother and sister through allt he years. But I cant fault myself, for I had no way of escaping teh shackles of my pain. It was so bad,it filled mywhole being, it colored every aspect of my life. I felt like a handicapped person in an able-bodied world; like a person adrift alone on a lifeboat in the middle of a vast shark infested sea. The pain followed me 24/7.

Clarissa

Tue, Dec 04 2007, 4:31 pm

Mama Bear, I personally don't even think that post is worth responding to, but I want to add something.

Nobody is in a competition for misery. I went through something awful that affected me in many ways, but I didn't accept any conversation where people said, "But what about what you went through? What right does so-and-so have to be upset?" It's not a competition, in which we say what right do infertile people have to be so upset, what about mothers of cancer patients? We don't compete for misery, we try to understand.

This is a world where we empathize and sympathize, and react accordingly, whatever that means. We don't try to quantify and compare peoples' pain.

This is not directed to the OP of this thread, because I feel everything has been said that needs to be said. And, frankly, this isn't directed at the amother, although this is in response to the gist of what she said.