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Holocaust Museums
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 23 2007, 9:30 pm
My ds is in yeshiva in EY and on Chanukah went to Yad V'Shem. The museum gives a full scale education on the holocaust but their end message is that the outcome of the holocaust was the founding of the state of Israel.
The Detroit version of the Holocaust Museum has a brilliant display of the history and customs of Jews and as it descends into the pits of the holocaust there are wall sized photos of corpses piled up. The end message is that bigotry is wrong.
A friend of mine is arguing with her teen aged daughter who wants to tour the Detroit museum and the parents feel that the message there is all wrong. I am undecided as to whether or not anyone benefits from wall murals with corpses but I don't know why the message to Jews can't be to bring more Jewish babies into the world, marry Jews, give children a Jewish identity, and understand about the coming of Moshiach. It seems to me that these museums are slanted at eliminating hatred against minorities but have little message to offer a Jew.
How does Yad V'Shem equate the horrors of the holocaust with the founding of the state of Israel? To me it seems like small consolation.
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Pickle Lady




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 23 2007, 9:34 pm
I agree with you SB
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su7kids




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 23 2007, 9:54 pm
What I love about the Museum of Tolerance/Holocaust Museum in Los Angeles is that it has a focus of TOLERANCE and how, if we are not careful, it could happen again.

It shows the beginnings of intolerance, of racism, etc, around the world and what was going on at the time that made the Holocaust era "ripe" for what happened.

It makes you think about your own prejudices and how easily one can fall into the trap.

And the building of the State of Israel IS a result of the holocaust. Whether it justifies the holocaust or not, I don't think so, but right after the 2nd world war, they did establish the State. Whether we believe in the State or not, its a fact, and the timing is factual.

The main message of most Holocaust memorials and museums must be that it should never happen again (even though it has, in Africa)
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poelmamosh




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 24 2007, 12:30 am
I was just having a conversation last Shabbos about Holocaust museums with my SIL. I agree about Yad Vashem not quite cutting it, but I think it has to do with the fact that it was built awhile ago for a generation that was at most once removed from the actual horrors. I don't really remember the State of Israel aspect of the visit - but it was emotional for me simply because my family had then recently arranged for a tree planting for the woman who saved them in Hungary.
I liked the MOT in LA a lot more, (liked? that's a strange expression I guess in reference to the subject), but the most is the Museum of Heritage here in Lower Manhattan- although not exclusively a Holocaust Museum it gives it plenty of coverage - what I identifired with was how it highlights shtetl life before the War, and really drives home to visitors that European Jewry was a lot more frum than they are generally portrayed. I think that alone is valuable.
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mamacita




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 24 2007, 1:49 am
There is a musuem on Har Tzion that was the first Holocaust museum in the world. It was founded by survivors and is now cared for by the Diaspora yeshiva. It's called the Chamber of the Holocaust. It focuses on Hashem's guiding hand in all the happenings, including miracles and sustained faith even in dark times. There are memorials dedicated for each of the villages who's population was wiped out plus a sculpture called something like Rachel's tears.

I usually recommend that people go there instead of Yad V'shem since learning about this without mentioning Hashem makes it another history museum not something as meaningful as it should be.
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rosehill




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 24 2007, 8:03 am
SB, I'm not sure how one can say that the message is "all wrong". I find that quite concerning.

Possibly, if you and I were setting up a holocaust museum, we would do it differently (it's been years since I've been to Yad Vashem, and I'm not familiar with the museum in Detroit), but for our children to take time out of their day and remember 6 000 000 lost, can only be good for them.

These people have no gravesites, no yahrzeits, no death certificates, nobody saying kaddish for them. All they have is these museums around the world, and the people who take time out of their day to remember not only their deaths, but their lives. If the mural of corpses reminds a person the magnitude of the event, while humanising each death, then I believe it is very valuable.

A compromise? Let your friend go with her teenage daughter to the museum. The exhibits are the exhibits, let your friend use the moment to teach her daughter what she feels the conclusions should be.


With every passing day, there are fewer and fewer witnesses, and more and more deniers. Our children need to learn about this so they can honor the dead. If we can't support the museums that exist, then the least we can do, is fight to build memorials we can support.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 24 2007, 8:47 am
true rosehill...

I personally think assimilated Jews would be a bit less, if they were brought to see these museums.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 24 2007, 7:32 pm
Remembering an event or a person is a wonderful thing rosehill, but shouldn't it be followed up with action?
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shanie5




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 24 2007, 8:10 pm
its been 19 yrs since I went to yad v'shem, but I do remember actually 'feeling' the holocaust for the first time. I dont remember the end....

the holocaust museum in washington d.c. is powerful. when we took dds 8th grade class, that was the last place the girls wanted to go-but they were not given a choice. in the end, they did not want to leave because they were learning so much about what happenend.
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rosehill




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 24 2007, 11:37 pm
southernbubby wrote:
Remembering an event or a person is a wonderful thing rosehill, but shouldn't it be followed up with action?

Absolutely. So follow it up with action that makes sense to you. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater by avoiding the museums altogether.
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freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 27 2007, 3:05 pm
The new Yad Vashem museum is much better than the old one. But to that a frum Yid should add going to the Martef Hashoa on Har Tzion in Yerushalayim. There is also the Ginzach Kiddush Hashem in Bnai Brak of the Gerrer and a place that they started for frum commemoration in Kefar Haroeh. That's what my mother told me, she keeps up on this because of our family being killed in the Shoa..
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ss321




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 27 2007, 9:16 pm
southernbubby wrote:
their end message is that the outcome of the holocaust was the founding of the state of Israel.

whether a/o likes it or not, it is pretty obvoius that the founding of the state of israel happened, at least partly, b/c of hte holocaust. you may disagree with the ideologies and philosophes of the state (as do many of us), but that is the reality.
southernbubby wrote:

The Detroit version of the Holocaust Museum ...The end message is that bigotry is wrong.

You have to have a bit more of a "global" perspective, and not miss the forest for the trees, excuse the cliche. That these museums are NOT just built for jews. and for good reason! the Yidden werent the ones hauling millions of ppl off to concentration camps! So when non jews (some of whom might even have hungarian, polish, or even German, ancestors), walk through (and id venture to say ~>50% of ppl who go to these museums are NOT jewish), they SHOULD understand that the lesson we should take from all this is tolerance, and maybe in doing so, it WILL help ensure that such an atrocity will never happen again. Do you know how many hudreds of thoudsands of ppl are being killed in Darfour? yes, I know theyre non jews, thats probably what youre thinking right, but still. If this is the attitude of people in the world towards others, today its some nation in africa, and tomorrow its some nation in the middle east that they think should be palestine. Moreover southernbubby, being that the fact is that lots of people visitng these museums are not jewish, SHOULD we be teaching them abt "pirya urivya?" quite frankly, I think "advertising" that that is our "motto," will only make them hate us more (those jews, irresponsibly have tons of kids, cant pay for it, they run around and dont go to college, etc etc. theyll find ANYTHING to get us on. why give them more reasons?? since when is the torah an adveritising campaign for hte gantze oilem??)

Frum ppl walking through, if they received proper chinuch at home and at school, they would know AUTOMATICALLY, what they should get out of this is that we have to protect our nation, not assimilate, know who we are and do our best to always remember that were not "part of them" even in the goldene medinah of america where e/o is so nice to us. I dont think frum children educated in proper BY and Yeshiva systems, need a "museum" to teach them the first mitzvah in the Torah.
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 27 2007, 9:36 pm
Hm


Never thought of any of that.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 27 2007, 11:47 pm
ss321, frum kids don't need a Holocaust museum to teach the first mitzvah but what about non-frum Jews? Only about 11-12% of American Jews are frum. Don't the museums have an obligation to teach something to non-frum Jews before they teach non-Jews? Also, I wonder how many non-Jews visit Holocaust museums if they are bigots. There may be those who want to understand Jews so that they will be less bigoted but would someone who hates Jews visit?
Bigotry and hatred are still alive and well. Holocaust museums such as the paper clips one in Tennessee are operated by non-Jews in order to teach anti-bigotry to non-Jews. Don't the Jewish operated ones have an obligation to teach Jews to marry Jews and to be willing to raise another generation of Jews?
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 28 2007, 3:14 am
I thought of this thread this week, because I saw advertised that the Kaliver Rebbe is planning to set up a Holocaust museum from a Torah viewpoint in Yerushalayim. Called "Shema Yisroel - Yad Likdoshim".

They were asking for help - both practical and financial I presume.
kaliv@kaliv.org.il
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freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 28 2007, 4:34 am
This is really interesting. I remember learing that the Kaliver Rebbe went through horrible things himself under the Nazis yemach shemam and he has devoted a lot of time to making known the kiddush Hashem berabim of so many Yidden during the Shoah. I remember seeing something in Hamodia that he or an organization of his was collecting material years ago. How wonderful that he is at the stage of putting together such a museum.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 28 2007, 8:40 am
I heard it too.

In France we learned the Holocaust every year, at school, we were brought to museums, movies... my parents always tried to know when it would be and not send me, they said "the non jews need to go, not us". But I think ever for a Jew it's good to go and remember.
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ss321




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 28 2007, 9:41 am
southernbubby wrote:
ss321, frum kids don't need a Holocaust museum to teach the first mitzvah but what about non-frum Jews?

Holocaust museums are not set up as Kiruv Organizations. that is not their point. You want to make a "kiruv museum?" I highly doubt youll have many visitors. There are websites, organizations, lubavitch, I have no clue. Im not into Kiruv, I kindof believe in "INreach" more than "OUTreach," worrying about the true problems in my family and my community first and foremost, making sure we dont LOSE ppl to the outside world, but thats a totally seperate topic. Anyhow, you have to be realistic. Do you really think for even one second, that if a conservative or reform jew (one who is very opposed to Orthodox Judaism, not one who chooses to do what they do but is "accepting" of all Jews including Frum), saw, in the context of a museum, that "because of the horrible things that happened in the Holocaust, we have to have more kids b/c pru urevu is a mitzvah," etc, theyd suddenly say, "wow, all those frum ppl who I think are insane for having 12 kids and not educating them, living on secion 8 and wic, are really right!!" No. Theyed either roll their eyes, or worse, theyd think its just some sort of "conspiracy theory" on the part of the religious.

I dont know how many non frum Jews you know, but I interact with MANY on a daily basis, in NY! (so not in middle america where some non jews still think Jews have horns), and their attitude aint changing. Going to a Holocaust Museum is not the time nor the place to try to "educate" them or make them frum. You want to do that, go join Aish Hatorah or whoever does Kiruv. but thats not the purpose of these museums
southernbubby wrote:

Don't the museums have an obligation to teach something to non-frum Jews before they teach non-Jews?

absolutely not!! And the truth is, the money funding most of these museums is coming from MORE non-frum jews than frum ones. If tey wanted to take their money and build a new kiruv organization, they wouldve done that instead.

Non-frum jews didnt cause the holocaust (and you can say it happened because of assimilation if you want, but that was assimilation on the part of many frum jews as well, and saying the holocaust happened because of x is just ignorant. were not Hashem. its like when ppl say 9/11 happened b/c women werent careful about tzniyus and the arabs are so its was midah kneged midah)

non jews caused the holocaust. Sure Hitler Y"S was a "mesenger" of Hashem, but they "caused" it. So there is much more that we need to teach them, before we teach other Jews. I think itll be a while before the Reform start throwing the Orthodox in Concentration Camps, dont you? but you know what, there is NO knowing, if 100 years from now, the non jews of america will be as friendly to us as they are now. Things in germany were great for nearly 1000 years. Then suddenly, the attitude change, s/o new came to power, and BAM.
southernbubby wrote:

Also, I wonder how many non-Jews visit Holocaust museums if they are bigots.

well probably, of the I think ~23% (the number I think I heard quoted on 1010WINS a couple months ago) of americans who are "anti-semitic", not many. But the other 77%? Whether or not they say they "HATE" jews, none of them really like us, deep inside. Thats s/t you always have to remember. So those 77%? if we can change their attitudes just a little bit, who knows.

I dont know if you watch movies or not, but if you do, you should get the DVD "freedom writers." I just rented it a few weeks ago, and it is worth seeing.
southernbubby wrote:

There may be those who want to understand Jews so that they will be less bigoted but would someone who hates Jews visit?

probably not, but 23% is alot of people, given that there are what? like 300 million people in america? so thats like ~70 million? Of those 70 MILLION, if even TEN visit, and FIVE of those change their attitudes, then I think it was worth it.
southernbubby wrote:

Don't the Jewish operated ones have an obligation to teach Jews to marry Jews and to be willing to raise another generation of Jews?

sure, if the Kaliver rebbe is successful in opening a frum "owned" and operated holocaust museum, then let them teach about pirya urivya. But no, they dont have an obligation, for one reason and one reason alone: They are not being funded by the Yeshiva world, where pirya urivya is thought to be the most important mitzvah. Alot of Modern Orthodox yidden donate money to these museums, but arent Modern Orthodox all so "modern" and against everything frum, because they DO use birth control and DONT have 15 kids? (im not g-d forbid saying my own opinion. Im just saying what I hear among the more Yeshivish in my eighborhood). And no, they dont need nor want to be "mekarev" either. Having some kollel yingerman tell a "modern orthodox" Lawyer with four children, thatyou should really have more than that because you have four daughters and you need a daugher and a son to fulfill the mitzvah, well all ic an say is youd be lucky if the lawyer didnt punch the kollel; guy in the face.

For the most part, it is the NON-orthodox who are providing the millions it takes to build these museums. Nevertheless, I would venture to say that most, if not all of them, are "Jewish operated." So why would someone with 1.8 kids and a dog, who goes to a "synagogue" with mixed seating where they daven to the G-d of our patriarchs and MATRIARCHS, keeps Kosher in their home but eats at treif restaurants, but who truly believes in the importance of Judaism, "in their heart," want their well earned money to go towards some "fanatic" tour guide telling people "you have to have lots of children"? Im not saying their right. Im just trying to show you how they look at it.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 29 2007, 6:22 pm
I once met a Conservative Jewish woman with 8 kids, all born in memory of Holocaust victims. Even if each non-frum home had one more child, it would help build up the Jewish people. The numbers of Jews has dropped dramatically.
Also, why do you think that I don't know any non-frum Jews?
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 29 2007, 8:00 pm
Because ................... they don't identify with Jews ?
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