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Shabbetai Tzvi

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stem

Mon, Aug 29 2005, 10:46 pm

I just finished reading "the imposter" - a novel based on the historical events surrounding Shabbetai Tzvi. I always knew about him, but this was the first time I really understood how almost all the Jews of the world at the time really believed that he was the Mashiach. People all over the world actually sold all their property and packed their bags ready to leave for Eretz Yisrael. Even the non jews were getting nervous. In reality he was a delusional manic depressed person, surrounded by people who claimed they were prophets and proclaiming him as the Mashiach.
He ended up converting to Islam to save his own life. I believe the devestation of the Jewish people that followed his conversion was the roots of the Maskilim movement and the whole secular movement in Jewish History.
Any thoughts?

Rivk

Tue, Aug 30 2005, 12:16 am

I love that book! And all of Avner Gold for that matter. Very very sad. He wasn't the only false mashiach though, there were others. Could be he was the most recent and maybe drew the most followers.

queen

Tue, Aug 30 2005, 8:18 am

I heard a tape by Rabbi Wein many years ago on this topic. He gave very good background info and thoughts..... would recommend if you're interested in learning/understanding more about Shab.Tzvi.

baby's mom

Tue, Aug 30 2005, 3:15 pm

queen, I heard it too. Rabbi Berel Wein is fascinating!! We listen to his history tapes in the car. He gives it over in a very interesting way Exclamation

Aish

Tue, Aug 30 2005, 7:51 pm

baby's mom wrote:

queen, I heard it too. Rabbi Berel Wein is fascinating!! We listen to his history tapes in the car. He gives it over in a very interesting way :!:

hey babys mom, we listen to him as well and love what he has to say. we've learned a lot from his tapes.
this subject fascinates me as well. especially after reading the story. whats unbelievable is that yidden really believed he was moshiach, as he was breaking a bunch of halachas. too few people ended up standing up to him and questioning him. and I cant figure out why so many of our people were taken for a ride. other than their hope and desperation for moshiach won out against all seeming logic.

stem

Tue, Aug 30 2005, 8:08 pm

I think in those days, most people were uneducated, except for the Rabbis. And even the Rabbis mostly didn't know Kaballah. When Shabbetai Tzvi said, I had a vision and learned in Kaballa that you are allowed to do so-and-so, or I am Mashiach, so I proclaim that Tisha B'av is now a Yom Tov. Everyone was so overwhelmed they just listened to him!
It reminds me a little of the Salem Witch trials, (lehavdil) when these girls claimed to see visions, and the people believed them because they had no other experience dealing with such bizzare behavior. (btw- the salem witch trials happend around the same time in history, but in the US.)

Last edited by stem on Tue, Aug 30 2005, 9:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

Aish

Tue, Aug 30 2005, 9:08 pm

[quote="stem"].

Quote:

(btw- the salem witch trials happend around the same time in history, but in the US.)

wow thats strange. it happened that long ago?
im sure there's some mystical connection there.

stem

Tue, Aug 30 2005, 9:28 pm

I think the Salem witch trials happened in the late 1600's and Shabbetai Tavi was 1666. I'm sure there's a mystical connection.

Tovah

Tue, Aug 30 2005, 10:11 pm

I love those serious of avnar gold I must have read them abt 5 times if not more.

Mommy912

Tue, Aug 30 2005, 10:16 pm

FYI, Avner Gold is a pen name - there is no such person.

stem

Tue, Aug 30 2005, 10:18 pm

Do you know what the real name author is? just curious.

Mommy912

Tue, Aug 30 2005, 10:27 pm

Yep! But that is one riddle that I have no permission to tell. Sorry.

Tovah

Tue, Aug 30 2005, 10:27 pm

are you serious? that's not his name? Ummm.............

stem

Tue, Aug 30 2005, 11:02 pm

I'll ask my mother. She's in the publishing world...

baby's mom

Tue, Aug 30 2005, 11:47 pm

Stem I am now in the mood of reading this book... Wink

I think I'll be off to the library tomorrow...

Motek

Wed, Aug 31 2005, 2:58 pm

stem wrote:

I believe the devestation of the Jewish people that followed his conversion was the roots of the Maskilim movement and the whole secular movement in Jewish History.

did you see this anywhere?

B. Wein doesn't make the connection, at least not here:

http://rabbiwein.com/column-715.html

stem

Wed, Aug 31 2005, 3:05 pm

Yes, I learned it in Seminary.

Rivka

Sat, Sep 03 2005, 7:51 pm

I have read that book and it's not the cause for the reform movement...is that what maskilim means??
Reform was much later on and due to Jews having it slightly easier and some split from the main Jewry and said they should socialise more with the non Jews and go to Uni and stuff...all quite normal of the times today really, but I think it got worse.
Anyway, Shabttai Zvi was not killed by the Sultan because he didn't want to make a new religion like yoshka pancake so he offerd him Allah or the Sword and when the guy took Allah all those who believed he was something realised he was false and it did cause people to be more wary of any new comer. Another thing, he was very very bright and when he was younger his Rebbes thought he was very clever, but his mistake apparently was learning Kaballah before the age of 40 and that is what caused him to go doolaly.
He even married a Sefer Torah...I mean, if a guy does that you tend to grab them and chuck them out the shul and then call the men in white.

LubavitchLeah

Sun, Dec 25 2005, 3:08 am

From my limited knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong, because of sabatai Tzvi and all the devastation he left behind for our people to face, yes selling there homes, land, moving etc, the emotional baggage to pick up, so dissiluisuioned we were as a people. As I was saying, because of this, when the Baal Shem Tov came about and Chasidis was spread, the yidden in Eastern Europe, the GRA leading many, were very dubious of another "fly by nighter" movement so to speak, like Sabbatai Tzvi. This explaining some of the negative feelings and anger very very sadly towards early Chasidis. This is much more complex ofcourse and there are many other pieces to this puzzle but the mention of Sabatai Tzvi always for some reason saddens me cause it played a role I think in the issues the Misnagdim had with Chasidis?

TzenaRena

Sun, Dec 25 2005, 5:26 am

Quote:

but his mistake apparently was learning Kaballah before the age of 40 and that is what caused him to go doolaly.

learning Kabbalah before 40 is only opposed by opponents to kabbalah in general. the Arizal proclaimed that in these times "mitzvah l'galos zos hachochma" It is a mitzvah to reveal the Pnimius HaTorah. There are no time restraints.

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