getting paid to say kaddish

PinkandYellow

Mon, Jan 28 2008, 12:35 am

I know that when someone commits to say kaddish for another person (not his father), in general its a service he gets paid for.
I'm not questioning it, becuase its a huge 11 mth commitment, same as a job.
I'm just wondering if there is a halachic source for this? Or has it just become minhag/accepted practice?

GetReal

Mon, Jan 28 2008, 3:03 am

From "The Jewish Way in Death and Mourning" by Maurice Lamm:

Quote:

If relatives cannot, for one reason or another, accept the full obligation for reciting Kaddish, should a stranger be hired to do so? In the absence of a son, or a personal reliable substitute, Jewish families, traditionally, have paid a sexton or another synagogue functionary to say the Kaddish. They felt that it was better to pay for this service, than to receive it free, as they were then able to consider the agent a personal emissary, and were, thus, assured of its recitation. The person who is thus engaged should not, by right, be saying the Kaddish for many others, as it will then lose all personal bearing to the deceased.

It must be noted that this custom, while practiced sincerely and conscientiously, has unfortunately brought a host of evil consequences in its train. It has caused people to think of respect for the dead only in material terms. It has engendered the feeling that somehow the Kaddish is a sort of credit system that can be manipulated financially. It has encouraged people, ultimately, to "pay" for all other services, so that they soon seek to "hire" a yahrzeit or yizkor or a malei prayer at the grave, a practice which is reprehensive to the religious spirit. In a larger sense, people come to believe that paying is more important than praying, and begin to consider the synagogue a celestial supermarket. They substitute the bank for the Bible, and believe that they can erase all personal vices by contributions to charity. The harm this practice has caused far outweighs the good it has innocently sought to instill. As such, it should be minimized, if not totally abandoned.

There is, however, a wise recommendation, in this regard, made by some of our greatest scholars: To contribute to a religious academic institution--a Yeshiva or Day School or home for elderly people--to enable one man to study Torah or Talmud every day, and to recite, at the end of the study period, the Rabbi's Kaddish, in honor of the dead. This is a personal memorialization, a "Merit of the Children" that includes study and prayer, Torah and Kaddish, in a dignified and worthy manner. In fact, this was practiced by some leading Torah scholars even though they were survived by pious sons who undoubtedly recited the Kaddish regularly.

PinkandYellow

Mon, Jan 28 2008, 3:29 am

thanks for hte quote. although I guess the evils that he talks about only happen in very modern circles. I appreciate that there is a source for it.

Besiyata Dishmaya

Mon, Jan 28 2008, 4:35 am

Here is an amazing famous true story from Rabbi Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld zt"l regarding Kaddish being said for those neshamos who didn't have anyone saying it for them:

A highly respected woman, the wife of a prosperous businessman in the Hungarian city of Pressburg, adopted the custom of periodically donating a sum of money to the yeshivah, on the condition that someone there recite Kaddish for the souls of those unfortunates who have no one to say it for them. The yeshivah administration agreed, appointing one of the students to recite Kaddish for those departed souls.

After some time, the woman's husband passed away. His business suffered greatly without his leadership, and eventually fell into such dire straits that the woman was forced to close it down. Her financial situation worsened dramatically. As time passed, she was faced with a new problem. Her two daughters had reached marriageable age, but from where was the money to come for their weddings?

The mother bore her burdens in silence, courageously resigned to her fate. There was, however, one thing she was not willing to accept. The recitation of Kaddish must not stop just because she could no longer afford to pay her usual stipend. In great bitterness of spirit, she turned to the yeshivah administration, pleading with them to continue the Kaddish custom until her fortune turned and she would once again be able to pay.

The Yeshivah, moved by the widow's sincerity, agreed to do as she asked. The promise filled her with boundless joy. With beaming countenance, she left the yeshivah and started for home. Her situation did not press upon her quite as much as before. As long as Kaddish would be said, she felt she lacked nothing in this world. As far as her two daughters were concerned, she would place her trust in God. The merciful Father of orphans and the compassionate Judge of widows would surely see their poverty and supply them with suitable grooms and all their needs.

One day, as the woman stepped out into the street, she saw an elderly Jew approaching. His beard was full and white, and his face shone like the sun. The warmth of his greeting startled the woman -- after all, the old man was a stranger to her. Her surprise grew when he began conversing with her, asking about her situation and that of her children.

The woman sighed deeply, pouring out the tale of her hardships. She described her fall from prosperity to poverty, to the point that she lacked the means with which to marry off her grown daughters.

"How much do you estimate you need for their wedding expenses?" the old man asked.

"What's the difference?" she sighed. "With all due respect, why do you wish to know?"

Rather than responding, however, the man pressed her for an answer until she gave him the estimate he wanted. Immediately, he drew a page from his notebook and wrote instructions to the local bank to pay her the amount she had mentioned.

Because this was a very large sum of money, he suggested to the stupefied widow, it was preferable that the note be signed in the presence of witnesses. They would see with their own eyes that he was signing over the money, and would add their own signatures to that effect.

Astonished and shaken, the widow went to the yeshivah to request that two students accompany her. The old man asked them to witness his signature on the check. For additional security, he asked them for a piece of paper, on which he signed his name once again for authentication purposes. He handed the check to the woman with instructions to redeem it at the bank on the following morning.

The whole business seemed extraordinary to her. Why had the old man, a stranger to her, seen fit to show her such largess -- to the point of covering the entire wedding expenses for her two daughters? Nevertheless, she hurried to the bank the next day to try her luck.

When the bank clerk read the check, he stared at the widow in amazement. He looked at the check again, then again at the widow. In some confusion, he asked her to wait. Check in hand, he went into the manager's office.

The bank manager took one look at the check -- and fainted dead away!

A babble of distress and bewilderment arose from every corner of the bank. The clerks, hearing of the incident, hustled the widow into a small room and stood guard over her to make certain she did not leave. Clearly, something was amiss.

When the manager recovered consciousness, he demanded to see the woman who had brought in the check. As she stood before him, trembling, he demanded an accounting of how she had come by the check.

"I received it just yesterday from a very respectable Jew. There were two witnesses to his signature, too," she explained anxiously.

"Would you be able to identify the man who gave you the check, if you saw a picture of him?" the manager asked.

"Of course I could! And I have no doubt that the two yeshivah students who witnessed his signature could identify him as well."

The manager reached into his desk and pulled out a picture.

"Yes!" The woman beamed. "That's the man. He's the one who so generously gave me the check."

Slowly, the manager turned to his clerks. "Give this woman the money," he ordered. "And then let her go."

It was only after the widow's departure that he confided his story to those present, who were naturally agog with curiosity.

"The man who gave that woman the check," he said, "was my father -- who passed away 10 years ago. Last night, he appeared in a dream and told me these words: 'Know this. Since you strayed from Judaism and stopped reciting Kaddish for me, my soul found no rest -- until this woman, this widow, came and arranged for the recitation of Kaddish for those who have no one to say it for them. The Kaddish they said for me in the yeshivah, on that woman's instructions, led to ascendancy and peace for my soul.'

"'Tomorrow morning, this woman will appear in your bank with a check that I have given her to cover her daughters' wedding expenses.'

"When I woke up this morning, I was shaken by the dream. I described it to my wife, who just laughed. But when the woman appeared with the check, I realized that the dream had come true."

(Rabbi Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld ZT"l would tell this story, adding THAT HE WAS ONE OF THE YESHIVAH BOYS WHO WITNESSED THE SIGNATURE.)

ChossidMom

Mon, Jan 28 2008, 4:55 am

Yup, this is a famous story.
My husband tells me that in the halacha it's written that if someone who is not the relative is saying the Kaddish or Mishnayot for the deceased, money should change hands so that the Kaddish will actually go towards that neshomo.

My brother in law arranges arranges Kaddish and learning of Mishnayot with a special kollel in Bnei Brak who do exclusively this. And despite what Mr. Lamm says about it bringing "evil consequences" this is a completely legitimate and holy way for these avreichim to earn their living. (PM me if you need help organizing this)

Did you know that MISHNA and NESHAMA are the same letters? And that it's a very, very big and important thing for the neshama to have mishnayot learned for it? I only recently learned this. And the fact remains that it's very, very hard for the family to learn mishnayot for the entire year. Even Kaddish is difficult to keep up. I know that my husband has 2 brothers and they are in aveilus this year. They know that if something happens and one person misses, the other two are still doing it. Very often, people will pay someone to say Kaddish simply as a backup.
And, of course, there are people who have daughters who cannot fulfill the mitzva.

ChossidMom

Mon, Jan 28 2008, 4:56 am

By the way, Methinks, where did you find the story? Do you know in which book it's published?

Besiyata Dishmaya

Mon, Jan 28 2008, 5:08 am

ChossidMom wrote:

By the way, Methinks, where did you find the story? Do you know in which book it's published?

I believe it's in Rabbi Avraham Erlanger's book: She'll Be Praised (or something like that) and I also read it several months ago in the Hamodia.

chocolate moose

Mon, Jan 28 2008, 7:52 am

Pinkand Yellow, we did when my father passed.

Are you writing this "for" or "against" ?

PinkandYellow

Mon, Jan 28 2008, 9:43 am

chocolate moose wrote:

Pinkand Yellow, we did when my father passed.

Are you writing this "for" or "against" ?

stahm. someone in the neighborhoods father passed away and they are paying my husband to say kaddish for the 11 mths. Its actually really huge siyata dishmaya bec we are in a very bad financial sitch right now and this is saving us. I think its good also cuz it pushes dh to daven with a minyan and have a more set schedule.

ChossidMom

Mon, Jan 28 2008, 10:13 am

Brilliant!!
And it's quite a big responsibility.

sarahd

Mon, Jan 28 2008, 1:36 pm

ChossidMom wrote:

We were told that too, which is why although my father's chavrusos and my uncle are saying kaddish for my father and were not interested in being paid for it, we asked them to take money.

ny21

Mon, Jan 28 2008, 1:42 pm

me thinks , thanks for the story,

chocolate moose

Mon, Jan 28 2008, 4:42 pm

PinkandYellow wrote:

someone in the neighborhoods father passed away and they are paying my husband to say kaddish for the 11 mths.

He asked his parents, right ?

ChossidMom

Mon, Jan 28 2008, 10:43 pm

Oh yeah, that's right. I forgot. A person is not really supposed to say Kaddish for someone else while his own parents are still alive. CM is right. He would have to ask his parents' permission. With learning Mishnayos there is no such issue. Anyone can learn for a neshama.

ChossidMom

Mon, Feb 25 2008, 8:36 am

By the way, my husband was just reading up on the halachos as he is coming to the end of his aveilus. He found in the sources that it's actually BETTER to pay someone to say kaddish than to find someone who will say it for free. It's better for the neshoma.
Just FYI.

chocolate moose

Mon, Feb 25 2008, 10:38 am

ChossidMom wrote:

CM is right. He would have to ask his parents' permission. With learning Mishnayos there is no such issue. Anyone can learn for a neshama.

Yes, and DH DOES do that.