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Strange frightening story
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amother


 

Post Thu, Mar 06 2008, 10:44 am
Sorry, but the author (and I use that term loosely) of that story lost the message in the hammy manipulativeness of the story, describing the deaths of children. I shut off as soon as I got to the middle. If someone wants to say why certain people deserve our respect no matter what they do or say (and that is debatable) don't bury it (pun intended) in a morbid fable.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Mar 06 2008, 12:57 pm
amother wrote:
amother wrote:
amother wrote:
Noone is saying you have to follow everything every rav says but the point of the story was not to speak badly about a gadol.


If the story uses fear and scare tactics to FORCE people into listening, then that is completely wrong and the whole point of the article is moot. I'm not going to listen if they are trying to terrorize me that someone will die if I don't do this or this. Additionally, if people have to MAKE UP a story to get people to listen and follow gedolim, I will certainly be very turned off. Tell me something true to inspire me, but don't make up lies and false stories.
I agree 100%. Besides, I'm allowed to speak of human beings and express my honest feelings about them. This thing just comes off as silly and dramatic, not to mention clumsily manipulative.

I don't think the story is true and I don't like the way it was done either.
However the above sentence is very disturbing.

you are not allowed to speak about other people , its called Loshon Hora!
and even when you are not saying anything bad but just yentering about them, its also wrong and can do damage!
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amother


 

Post Thu, Mar 06 2008, 1:07 pm
amother wrote:
amother wrote:
amother wrote:
amother wrote:
Noone is saying you have to follow everything every rav says but the point of the story was not to speak badly about a gadol.


If the story uses fear and scare tactics to FORCE people into listening, then that is completely wrong and the whole point of the article is moot. I'm not going to listen if they are trying to terrorize me that someone will die if I don't do this or this. Additionally, if people have to MAKE UP a story to get people to listen and follow gedolim, I will certainly be very turned off. Tell me something true to inspire me, but don't make up lies and false stories.
I agree 100%. Besides, I'm allowed to speak of human beings and express my honest feelings about them. This thing just comes off as silly and dramatic, not to mention clumsily manipulative.

I don't think the story is true and I don't like the way it was done either.
However the above sentence is very disturbing.

you are not allowed to speak about other people , its called Loshon Hora!
and even when you are not saying anything bad but just yentering about them, its also wrong and can do damage!
So we're never allowed to speak negatively of other human beings? That makes absolutely no sense. Everyone is perfect and wonderful now?
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amother


 

Post Thu, Mar 06 2008, 1:23 pm
you really mean to tell me you don't know what it means to speak loshon hora?
c'mon...

yes you are not allowed to speak negatively about other people. In fact you really aren't supposed to speak about people period!
what doesn't make sense about it?
why should you want to speak about them?
Is there a tachlis?
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amother


 

Post Thu, Mar 06 2008, 1:25 pm
Oh, okay. That Stalin. He...um...had a nice mustache? And Hitler like dogs. I hear Jeffrey Dahmer was a really good cook?

You're right, this feels good!

We are allowed to discuss people. You are wrong about the meaning of loshon hara. What kind of world would this be, if everyone was okay, no matter what they did or said?
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amother


 

Post Thu, Mar 06 2008, 1:30 pm
Quote:
Oh, okay. That Stalin. He...um...had a nice mustache? And Hitler like dogs. I hear Jeffrey Dahmer was a really good cook?


are you comparing those people to rabbonim???
because that's what this discussion was about and that's what your comment was in response to

Quote:
We are allowed to discuss people. You are wrong about the meaning of loshon hara. What kind of world would this be, if everyone was okay, no matter what they did or said?


what has not talking about people got to do with people being ok or not?
I don't follow your logic one bit.

btw I'm starting a new thread on this topic we can take it up there.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Mar 06 2008, 1:33 pm
No, I'm not comparing them to rabbonim. I'm saying that we are allowed to discuss people, any person. I may have used some over-the-top examples, but it's because I thought your comment about 100% not being allowed to talk about people seemed over-the-top.

I can talk about people, good people, smart people, as well as people who aren't so good and smart. There are dishonest people in all walks of life, as well as virtuous ones.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Mar 06 2008, 1:36 pm
you said we can talk about people in reference to a discussion that was about loshon hora about rabonim.

first of all you didn't say we can say good things about people

but second, you actually can't just stum talk about people if you really want to get to the nitty gritty of hilchos loshon hora.

for example if you say so and so is so smart and someone hears you that doesn't agree you may cause the person to have ill feelings or may cause them to speak negatively in response.
of course we aren't all on that level but you should just know this to know its not so simple the way you are putting it.



anywya the rest of the discussion I'll continue on the other thread
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amother


 

Post Thu, Mar 06 2008, 1:39 pm
http://www.imamother.com/forum.....ight=
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amother


 

Post Thu, Mar 06 2008, 1:46 pm
WOW! This story implies a terrifying threat: if you don't follow certain rabbonim, someone will DIE!

Everyone, welcome to the new Judeo-Islam religion! Islam uses terrorism to scare people into submitting by threatening death, and now Judaism uses it too. Thank God, I am not part of this cult. Some people here though, sadly are.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Mar 06 2008, 1:49 pm
amother wrote:
[b]WOW! This story implies a terrifying threat: if you don't follow certain rabbonim, someone will DIE!



no,
this story implies you aren't supposed to speak negatively about rabbonim.

I don't agree with the way the story is written and I find it extremely disturbing but lets be accurate and not twist things ok?
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amother


 

Post Thu, Mar 06 2008, 1:51 pm
amother wrote:
amother wrote:
[b]WOW! This story implies a terrifying threat: if you don't follow certain rabbonim, someone will DIE!



no,
this story implies you aren't supposed to speak negatively about rabbonim.

I don't agree with the way the story is written and I find it extremely disturbing but lets be accurate and not twist things ok?
Perhaps you don't understand the word implies? Because the implication of the story is that a severe punishment, like the death of your child, might follow speaking negatively about rabbonim.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Mar 06 2008, 10:33 pm
amother wrote:
amother wrote:
[b]WOW! This story implies a terrifying threat: if you don't follow certain rabbonim, someone will DIE!



no,
this story implies you aren't supposed to speak negatively about rabbonim.

I don't agree with the way the story is written and I find it extremely disturbing but lets be accurate and not twist things ok?


That's what I meant. This story implies that if you speak badly about rabbonim/gedolim, someone will die. This kind of sick story terrorizes the people who actually believe it, making them paranoid not to say anything bad, lest their children die. It's disgusting to instill this kind of fear in people.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Mar 06 2008, 10:36 pm
amother wrote:
amother wrote:
amother wrote:
[b]WOW! This story implies a terrifying threat: if you don't follow certain rabbonim, someone will DIE!



no,
this story implies you aren't supposed to speak negatively about rabbonim.

I don't agree with the way the story is written and I find it extremely disturbing but lets be accurate and not twist things ok?


That's what I meant. This story implies that if you speak badly about rabbonim/gedolim, someone will die. This kind of sick story terrorizes the people who actually believe it, making them paranoid not to say anything bad, lest their children die. It's disgusting to instill this kind of fear in people.
Not just fear, but guilt. Can you imagine losing a loved one and blaming on something you said or did? Or you lose a loved one and have to deal with others thinking, because of stories like this, that you must have been responsible because of something you said at some point? I find this thing awful.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Mar 06 2008, 10:37 pm
amother wrote:
amother wrote:
amother wrote:
[b]WOW! This story implies a terrifying threat: if you don't follow certain rabbonim, someone will DIE!



no,
this story implies you aren't supposed to speak negatively about rabbonim.

I don't agree with the way the story is written and I find it extremely disturbing but lets be accurate and not twist things ok?
Perhaps you don't understand the word implies? Because the implication of the story is that a severe punishment, like the death of your child, might follow speaking negatively about rabbonim.
that's right but that's not what the amother quoted said.
She said not FOLLOW certain rabonim.

the two are very different
not following a rov who isn't mine is not the same as speakin negatively about him.


so yes I understand the word "imply" good and well but perhaps it is you that needs to read carefully to what I was responding.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Mar 06 2008, 10:39 pm
Whatever. People are not responsible for the deaths of innocent people, by some action related to respecting or following anybody. Tragedy is not punishment for such behavior.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Mar 06 2008, 11:05 pm
amother wrote:
Whatever. People are not responsible for the deaths of innocent people, by some action related to respecting or following anybody. Tragedy is not punishment for such behavior.


says who?
its not for people to discuss what hashem does as punishment.
Neither for the author nor for you.
we don't know hashem's ways or why he does what he does. It could be yes it could be no but its not our cheshbon. Our cheshbon is to do the best we can to fix ourselves and do mitzvos.
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