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| cdawnr |
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 Posted: Sun, Feb 17 2008, 2:32 pm Post subject: Dinosaurs |
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My ds went to a childrens museum today with a friend and had a great time. One activity they had was pretend archeology adn they "dug up dinosaur bones"...
When he was tellign me about it he said: But dinosaurs aren't real, right.
I didn't know how to answer as there are various Torah thoughts on it -- Varying from never existed to they did exist and are referred to in the Torah as soemthing else.
I said, no the bones weren't real, but he was too smart for that and said no the dinosaurs, so I said there are n dinosaurs today, but he pushed back to what I was right in suspecting was the real question. Before I answered he got distracted by something else (he is 3 after all) but
nu how do you answer that!?!
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| amother |
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Amother
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| Posted: Sun, Feb 17 2008, 2:49 pm Post subject: re: Dinosaurs |
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| The only way to answer is with what you honestly think. What are big bones that are dug up and scientist claim are dinosaur bones?
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| Ruchel |
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| Posted: Sun, Feb 17 2008, 3:00 pm Post subject: re: Dinosaurs |
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they died in the mabul? that's for those who believe in the literal 7 days.
Those who don't can explain one day for G-d can be longer, especially before the sun existed to "rhythm" the whole thing, so they lived a long time ago...
If you're not sure, ask a frum specialist or your rav?
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| ChossidMom |
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| Posted: Fri, Feb 22 2008, 1:48 am Post subject: re: Dinosaurs |
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| And to think that one of my Bechor's first books was Danny and the Dinasaur! I just told him they don't exist anymore. No big deal.
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| TzenaRena |
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| Posted: Fri, Feb 22 2008, 2:46 am Post subject: re: Dinosaurs |
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I don't see why there's any need to validate the museum's "hashkafa", or not imply that it's not what we believe.
Surely your son understands that the museum guides aren't Jewish, and he can be simply told that the whole dinosoar thing is goyishe . It shouldn't be hard for him to understand that while we are so lucky we have the Torah, where it tells us how Hashem created the world, Breishis Borah Elokim, etc., and the Torah is truth, Toras Emes, so we know the truth,
but that goyim don't have/ believe in the Torah, and sometimes they make things up taht are not true, like dinosoars and other "shtusim" e.g. fairy-tales.( you don't have to go into the whole evolutionary theory and refute it here, for your innocent little three year old's keppeh'le, just say that it's not what it says in the Torah, and goyim made up these stories.)
[For those who want to hijack this thread and turn it into a bashing thread "how dare you refer to goyim as x, y,or z", I will just say that my model for how to refer to these things is the Lubavitcher Rebbe, who never hesitates to call anti-Torah philosophies or apikorsus "Goyishkeit". However, the term the Rebbe uses for a non-Jew, when recognizing his existence as a human being, NOT in opposition to Torah, but as a citizen of humankind with potential for fulfilling G-d's purpose for his existence, then the Rebbe uses the more neutral term Non-Jew, or Eino Yehudi, not goy.
When the goy stands in or for opposition to Yiddishkeit, or the position of Torah on some matter, then the term goy, and goyishkeit applies.]
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| MMEC123 |
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| Posted: Fri, Feb 22 2008, 8:46 am Post subject: |
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"The whole dinosaur thing is goyishe?" "Made up like dinosaurs and other shtusim?" Do you have a source for that?
There are plenty of explanations such as those Ruchel mentioned like they died in the mabul or that the sheishes yimei bereishis were not literally days as we know them. I don't know how to look it up and DH doesn't have time right now but he said see the Tiferes Yisroel's commentary on the Mishna in Bereishis (I think by creation) and there is an explanation for the dinosaurs.
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| Ruchel |
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| Posted: Fri, Feb 22 2008, 8:47 am Post subject: re: Dinosaurs |
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There are many explanations on this. Unfortunately often the literal supporters and the non literal supporters can't respect the other pov, and go as far as bashing the rabbis who disagree with them. 
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| amother |
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| Posted: Fri, Feb 22 2008, 8:51 am Post subject: Re: re: Dinosaurs |
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| TzenaRena wrote: |
| [For those who want to hijack this thread and turn it into a bashing thread "how dare you refer to goyim as x, y,or z", I will just say that my model for how to refer to these things is the Lubavitcher Rebbe, who never hesitates to call anti-Torah philosophies or apikorsus "Goyishkeit". However, the term the Rebbe uses for a non-Jew, when recognizing his existence as a human being, NOT in opposition to Torah, but as a citizen of humankind with potential for fulfilling G-d's purpose for his existence, then the Rebbe uses the more neutral term Non-Jew, or Eino Yehudi, not goy. |
  :Did I miss something?
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| amother |
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| Posted: Fri, Feb 22 2008, 8:56 am Post subject: Re: re: Dinosaurs |
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| TzenaRena wrote: |
Surely your son understands that the museum guides aren't Jewish, and he can be simply told that the whole dinosoar thing is goyishe .
but that goyim don't have/ believe in the Torah, and sometimes they make things up taht are not true, like dinosoars and other "shtusim" e.g. fairy-tales.( you don't have to go into the whole evolutionary theory and refute it here, for your innocent little three year old's keppeh'le, just say that it's not what it says in the Torah, and goyim made up these stories.)
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On the other hand, you could offer him an explanation of what some people do believe, about the existence of dinosaurs, so he'll be capable of having intelligent discussions as he gets older.
Telling him that dinosaurs are just a goyishe "fairy tale" won't make him seem terribly well-educated.
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| Mimisinger |
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| Posted: Fri, Feb 22 2008, 8:56 am Post subject: |
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Tzena - I believe that the reason dawn was posting here, was because she didn't know what to say/what she believes. Correct me if I'm wrong dawn. Not everyone believes that dinosaurs are goyishe or a reflection of a museum's haskafa, and hold as Ruchel was saying that they died with the mabul or that Hashem's days didn't have to be 24 hours.
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| Ruchel |
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| Posted: Fri, Feb 22 2008, 8:59 am Post subject: re: Dinosaurs |
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I don't even know what I believe anymore lol
But for sure the bashers (from one side or another) DONT convince me one bit...
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| cdawnr |
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| Posted: Fri, Feb 22 2008, 10:51 am Post subject: |
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OMG! I am still in shock over TzeneRena's post.
I believe that there were dinosaurs...I just don't agree with the time table. I guess if I think about it, I would probably say preMabul or pre-Adam...and I think I have heard several explanations, but I have NEVER heard it referred to as just a goyish fairytale!
I happened to be online when he asked me, or just after, and it crossed my mind that I didn't really know how to respond, so I posted. Mimisinger is right, I just wanted to hear other people's ways of responding because it is important to answer intelligently to a 3 yr old and I don't think that he understands the concept of time enough to understand where our view differs from the secular view.
(BTW Chossimom--we've read Danny and the Dinosaur numerous times, and we even havea dinasaur book, and he never asked before  )
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| Hannah! |
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| Posted: Fri, Feb 22 2008, 11:09 am Post subject: Re: re: Dinosaurs |
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edit
Last edited by Hannah! on Sun, May 04 2008, 11:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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| cdawnr |
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| Posted: Fri, Feb 22 2008, 11:19 am Post subject: Re: re: Dinosaurs |
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| TzenaRena wrote: |
I don't see why there's any need to validate the museum's "hashkafa", or not imply that it's not what we believe.
Surely your son understands that the museum guides aren't Jewish, and he can be simply told that the whole dinosoar thing is goyishe . It shouldn't be hard for him to understand that while we are so lucky we have the Torah, where it tells us how Hashem created the world, Breishis Borah Elokim, etc., and the Torah is truth, Toras Emes, so we know the truth,
but that goyim don't have/ believe in the Torah, and sometimes they make things up taht are not true, like dinosoars and other "shtusim" e.g. fairy-tales.( you don't have to go into the whole evolutionary theory and refute it here, for your innocent little three year old's keppeh'le, just say that it's not what it says in the Torah, and goyim made up these stories.)
[For those who want to hijack this thread and turn it into a bashing thread "how dare you refer to goyim as x, y,or z", I will just say that my model for how to refer to these things is the Lubavitcher Rebbe, who never hesitates to call anti-Torah philosophies or apikorsus "Goyishkeit". However, the term the Rebbe uses for a non-Jew, when recognizing his existence as a human being, NOT in opposition to Torah, but as a citizen of humankind with potential for fulfilling G-d's purpose for his existence, then the Rebbe uses the more neutral term Non-Jew, or Eino Yehudi, not goy.
When the goy stands in or for opposition to Yiddishkeit, or the position of Torah on some matter, then the term goy, and goyishkeit applies.] |
Ok, your answer disturbed me greatly and I decided to be proactive, as best I oculd be right now. I went to AskMoses.com, which is a Lubavitch site and asked what the Rebbe's opinion of dinosaurs was. The Rabbi online responded thus:
Rabbi Eliezer G : the rebbe said that severa explanations coule be found
Rabbi Eliezer G : a, theflood aged the fossils
Rabbi Eliezer G : or b the fossils could have been created old just as adam was though Adam was created at the age of thirty and the dinasours could ahve been created at teh age of several million have the rebbe also questioned the general premise of carbon dating. he spoke of inductive proof as opposed to deductive proof
the age of universe subject is only subject to inductive proof rather than deductive which is by it very nature far less conclusive
The basis of the question is highly questionable in other words the burden of proof rests on science rather than religion
Rabbi Eliezer G : science can only suggest, but not conclusively prove even on the basis of the evidence available that the fossils are as old as they have dated them to be
Rabbi Eliezer G : another point the rebbe always made is that atmospheric conditions at the beginning of creation were far denser
and that itself wold have accelerated the aging process of fossils
our dating system is basedon current atmospheric conditions but we dont know what we are comparing it to that is what I meant when I wrote earlier about inductive versus deductive reasoning
(I cut out a lot of the "Rabbi Eliezer G:" to make coherent paragraphs.)
(The Rabbi's online bio: Rabbi Eliezer Gurkow
Location: London, Ontario Canada
Born: 1972, Boston, Massachusetts
Background: He was ordained in 1995, and serves as Rabbi of Congregation Beth Tefilah. He is a well-known speaker. Before he settled in Canada, he traveled from New Haven, CT to Postville, IA, to Sydney, Australia, to Singapore and Marina Del Rey, CA. He lives in London, Ontario, with his wife Basie and their four children.
"Believe in yourself. Listen to the voice of your soul. The potential is there, you need only bring it out.")
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| amother |
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| Posted: Fri, Feb 22 2008, 11:20 am Post subject: Re: re: Dinosaurs |
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| Hannah! wrote: |
| This can be viewed in the same light as one who states "Rashi says on the posuk...", "The Mishnah Berura holds...", and so on. It is very common to refer to the thoughts, ideas and beliefs of our Gedolim in the present tense, even if the Gedolim themselves are no longer present. |
Thanks for clarifying. I couldn't help noticing, as there have been a couple of posts recently that were worded in a way that made it sound as if he hadn't died. Now I understand why they were worded that way.
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| Hannah! |
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| Posted: Fri, Feb 22 2008, 12:38 pm Post subject: re: Dinosaurs |
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edit
Last edited by Hannah! on Sun, Mar 02 2008, 5:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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| amother |
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| Posted: Fri, Feb 22 2008, 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: re: Dinosaurs |
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| Hannah! wrote: |
*** Disclaimer ***
The current status of the Lubovitcher Rebbe's existence is a topic that is NOT discussed on Imamother.com.
I do not know TzenaRena's beliefs on the matter, and did not mean to imply that her beliefs are one way or the other. I merely offered a different context in which her words could be viewed, in addition to the one that the amother above implied. |
Got it. At any rate, thanks for the explanation.
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| justanothermother |
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| Posted: Fri, Feb 22 2008, 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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I have explained to my children that any carbon dating attempts on items from before the mabul will have skewed results. I have also explained that there are many theories as to the dinosaurs. Paleontologists can only guess as to the nature of the animals. The answer that sits best with me is just there were giant people, there is a possibility that animals were giant as well. There may also have been species that became extinct before the time of the mabul, just as we have species becoming extinct nowadays.
Had to add a cute story. When my daughter was 3 she learned about dinosaurs in school. She came home and told me "dinosaurs are in the museum because they stink." (extinct)
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| Barbara |
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| Posted: Fri, Feb 22 2008, 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: re: Dinosaurs |
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| TzenaRena wrote: |
| I don't see why there's any need to validate the museum's "hashkafa", or not imply that it's not what we believe. |
Certainly not, if that's the case.
| TzenaRena wrote: |
Surely your son understands that the museum guides aren't Jewish, and he can be simply told that the whole dinosoar thing is goyishe . It shouldn't be hard for him to understand that while we are so lucky we have the Torah, where it tells us how Hashem created the world, Breishis Borah Elokim, etc., and the Torah is truth, Toras Emes, so we know the truth,
but that goyim don't have/ believe in the Torah, and sometimes they make things up taht are not true, like dinosoars and other "shtusim" e.g. fairy-tales.( you don't have to go into the whole evolutionary theory and refute it here, for your innocent little three year old's keppeh'le, just say that it's not what it says in the Torah, and goyim made up these stories.) |
How do you know that the museum guides aren't Jewish?
Presumably, you are aware that our Torah forms the basis for a large number of non-Jewish religions, including Xtianity and Mormon. So its rather silly to suggest that most of them don't have or believe in the same creation story as Jews.
But what troubles me most is the suggestion of telling a child that the non-Jews *made up* dinosaurs. Do you really believe that? Do you think that there is some vast, non-Jewish conspiracy that has been going on for hundreds of years at this point to manufacture countless giant bones and bury them, often in difficult to reach places? Do you believe that this conspiracy includes the entire scientific community that has examined and tested these bones? (And presumably conspired to ensure that no Jewish scientist tests them, as s/he could debunk the entire thing.)
No, dinosaurs are not mentioned in the written Torah. So what? I'd guess that more things that we believe in -- religiously -- are not in there than are. We certainly know that there are things -- even major historical events of that era -- that are not recorded in the written Torah. Dinosaurs are just one of them. The wonder of the Torah is that even in the 21st century, with our ever-increasing scientific knowledge and understanding of the world around us, it all still fits in the Torah framework. We don't need to close our eyes and deny science; instead, we can show how science supports *us* Evolutionary theory suggests that everything started with water. So does the Torah. The progression of life on earth as suggested by science and the Torah are remarkably similar. The length of a day is changing even now; wasn't an adjustment recently made to the nuclear clock?
There are things in the Torah that we don't yet fully understand. Who knows, maybe the OP's son will be the one who through study of Torah and HaShem's world, will figure out the actual place of dinosaurs in the Torah.
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