Home
Log in / Sign Up
    Private Messages   Advanced Search   Rules   New User Guide   FAQ   Advertise   Contact Us  
Forum -> Interesting Discussions
Do you think for yourself?
1  2  3  4  Next



Post new topic   Reply to topic View latest: 24h 48h 72h

Pickle Lady




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 23 2008, 8:49 pm
Lately I have been thinking about that question. Stuff like whats a good school for my kids? Who makes the best sheitel? What companies makes good quality affordable kids clothes?

when I ask some of my friends thier opinions, some say what others tell them is the best and some actually give me thier opinion. I don't want to hear that x sheitel is the best because everyone says its the best. I want to know really why.

So many times on this site women write "this is not done is my circles/community" but whats the big deal? Why lead your life by what others think.

Maybe its just me because I am a BT and I already had to majorly do something that wasn't done in my circles/community/friends/family and that was become religious. so if it was homebirth or exclusively breastfeeding or putting used clothing on my kids, I don't really care what anyone thinks about it.

Maybe I am getting this whole thing wrong. Can someone please explain it to me why some women are so petrified of doing anything that doesn't fit the mold of thier community? I am not talking about going against halacha though.
Back to top

cassandra




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 23 2008, 8:56 pm
Pickle Lady wrote:


Maybe I am getting this whole thing wrong. Can someone please explain it to me why some women are so petrified of doing anything that doesn't fit the mold of thier community? I am not talking about going against halacha though.


I think the reason is that in some communities the line between "halacha" and "community standard" is very blurry.

Also, in many communities people (read: women) are not taught critical thinking skills, and when you can't think critically it is hard to make good decisions on your own.
Back to top

Beauty and the Beast




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 23 2008, 9:05 pm
It has to do with the person.
A person with self confidence will have the clarity to think for herself.
Many, many women have self doubt with everything they do, and want to do the right thing, therefore asking advice, and doing what they hear, not what they feel.

I think I think for myself. But there are some areas I am inexperienced in, like schools, or child rearing, and I make sure to ask people I respect for advice.
Back to top

bashinda




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 23 2008, 9:32 pm
It depends on the situation. I tend to think of myself as someone who does have critical thinking skills but in certain ways I pretty much go along with my community. For instance, the clothing I had bought in Israel I don't wear here in NY. It was perfectly tsnius, but very flowing and didn't fit. So in some way I conformed to the Brooklyn lifestyle and left that behind.

But I hear you. When I was expecting my first I started to feel leery when everyone and I mean everyone told me to use the same person for a doula. In the end that person couldn't do it, I found a lovely person and I was very happy and I can recommend that doula based on my experience not based on the fact that everyone in our community uses her.
Back to top

GAMZu




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 23 2008, 9:52 pm
I found that the "Good pediatrician" names being passed around aren't necc. so good.
When I mentioned to someone I want to switch my kids' Dr. because she messed up an antibiotic prescription and refused to admit it when I noticed the mistake, they all react, "But she's supposed to be such a good doctor!!"
Back to top

Atali




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 23 2008, 9:56 pm
cassandra wrote:
Pickle Lady wrote:


Maybe I am getting this whole thing wrong. Can someone please explain it to me why some women are so petrified of doing anything that doesn't fit the mold of thier community? I am not talking about going against halacha though.


I think the reason is that in some communities the line between "halacha" and "community standard" is very blurry.

Also, in many communities people (read: women) are not taught critical thinking skills, and when you can't think critically it is hard to make good decisions on your own.


I don't think that is really fair. In my dealings with the secular world, I have noticed that many of them don't think for themselves either. I think that it is more of an issue of human nature, and perhaps also not being taught to think critically as children.
Back to top

Tzippora




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 23 2008, 10:20 pm
Thinking for myself? Just try and stop me Smile

I find it the lack of critical thinking skills and the blurriness of the lines Cassandra referred to - very frustrating, to say the least.
Back to top

justanothermother




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 23 2008, 10:28 pm
One of my pet peeves as well, and yet... sometimes DH will question my reasoning behind some action of mine he disagrees with, and all I can come up with is that everyone is doing it. After thinking about it a while I figured it as such: there are things I don't care too much about but I still need to make some sort of decision such as clothing stores, what to serve at a party, should my daughter go to ballet or gymnastics etc. For those issues it is easier to go with the flow, I make my choice on the assumption that if that is how most are doing it, it can't be too bad, and if I'm wrong it's not really a big deal. For important decisions such as doctors, schools, etc. I will do my research and go against the flow if I feel it is best.
Back to top

Atali




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 23 2008, 10:33 pm
GAMZu wrote:
I found that the "Good pediatrician" names being passed around aren't necc. so good.
When I mentioned to someone I want to switch my kids' Dr. because she messed up an antibiotic prescription and refused to admit it when I noticed the mistake, they all react, "But she's supposed to be such a good doctor!!"


Gamzu, if you think that's bad, once the doctor gave my toddler antibiotics, which he had a severe allergic reaction to. When I took him back to the doctor (who confirmed what I thought), I straight away threw the bottle in the garbage.

Then he said to me, "But don't you want to keep it, in case your older child ever needs it" shock

Needless to say, that was the last time I ever went to that doctor.
Back to top

zigi




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 23 2008, 10:59 pm
peer pressure is in every community. people in manahatten try to get their kids into certain schools, and only wear certain brands, etc. keeping up with the jones's and steppford wives. jane green wrote a really good book about it. people like to fit in ad if they don't have a strong opinion about something they don't want to deviate from the norm. but people have to step back and see wether its a good thing to try to be like everyone else. not every one can afford a certain life style. why go into debt to be like everyone else? with somethings though you might have to go by word of mouth not everyone tried every single sheitel out there. I can tell brands that I don't like though!
Back to top

Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 23 2008, 11:10 pm
Tzippora wrote:
Thinking for myself? Just try and stop me Smile


Yep, that's me. But seldom have I met lack of critical thinking in someone intelligent enough to do so. I think that modern and frei society encourage us to be individuals by being different. To choose the road less traveled. When we think and decide to be different then we are independent thinkers. When we think and then decide to do as is customary in our communities we are robots. Individualism and the need to be unique are values I was embalmed in in public school. Its good to think out of the box. But never out of the box we have made. By identifying with a community, to truly be a part then you have to contribute to the community's goals. By being odd you hurt your children as well.

However, just as one person said that the lines between halacha and community standards are blurred there are also instances where one community doesn't understand that their chumra is another community's halacha or strong minhag. When my dd went to HS she was told that the perfectly tznius yishuv type clothes are not appropriate. I have had discussions here with someone who thinks only 3/4 length skirts are tznius al pi halacha. Our Bubbies were so prust with their skirts to the floor.

Some community standards are positive. If your rav and the community takes on itself a hiddur I think al tifrosh min hatzibbur applies. Also if your unique style makes you stand out and draw attention. Many communities have a kashrut standard so that there is no problem with eating together which may cause division in the community.

OTOH community standards like I have to push my kid into x yeshiva/sem even though its not the most suitable place to raise his shidduch value then I think its a mitzva to disobey. Or my dd will stay an old maid if I don't buy an apartment and support the sil in kollel. Anything that the motive is fear. Avoda zara is when we think something has more power than HaShem. We all know HaShem doesn't want Jewish young people not to meet their bashert, not to have parnassa or not to get into the right mosad. If we believe that a person can take that away then your fear is hurting your emuna.
Back to top

GAMZu




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 23 2008, 11:10 pm
I wore my baby in a sling in Boro Park. No one really does that here. At first I was but then I saw people were only reacting positively. So although I did go against the standard because it was more convenient for me and my baby, I was encouraged to continue because of the positive reaction.
Back to top

Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 23 2008, 11:12 pm
Sling or not is not community standard. Its more like this positive innovation hasn't gotten here yet. I think of community standards as things that are at least informally instituted.
Back to top

Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 24 2008, 6:51 am
Imaonwheels wrote:
Sling or not is not community standard. Its more like this positive innovation hasn't gotten here yet. I think of community standards as things that are at least informally instituted.


I wore my baby in a baby bjorn in CH, where it is quite common practice. I still got an earful from my next door neighbour, "Vot is this, vy are all the young girls nowadays vearing zeir babies like zis?" etc etc
Back to top

Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 24 2008, 6:55 am
When dd was born, sometimes my dh would wear her in the babybjorn (I never had the strength for that kind of stuff!) and people asked us what it was! But now, I see babies in babybjorns (and like) maybe every month.
Back to top

roza




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 24 2008, 12:46 pm
If you went to college, your mind is trained on 'critical thinking', ffbs are not trained in this, so everyone does what everyone does, everyone thinks what everyone thinks. Also, 'group thinking' clouds decisions and the ability to think for yourself.
Back to top

Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 24 2008, 12:52 pm
errrr ok, most ffb in France went to university, including a non negligible part of the ultra Orthodox b'h.
Back to top

flowerpower




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 24 2008, 7:59 pm
I think for myself and dont care what anyone else does. I open my eyes and see if others do something that makes sense or gives me good ideas ill use it.
Back to top

Beauty and the Beast




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 24 2008, 8:03 pm
roza wrote:
If you went to college, your mind is trained on 'critical thinking', ffbs are not trained in this, so everyone does what everyone does, everyone thinks what everyone thinks. Also, 'group thinking' clouds decisions and the ability to think for yourself.


I dont think it has anything to do with going to college or not. I have seen many dimwits who go to college, and get thru, only because they are book smart, and have no common sense to think for themselves.

It has to do with each person. I live in a community where everyone follows others opinions the whole day. to me, that is nauseating, and I know I will never do it to myself. I feel its demeaning to myself to have to follow others, and not having my own say in any matters.

I did not go to college, but I know I have more sense than many that did.
Back to top

Tehilla




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 24 2008, 8:07 pm
roza I disagree with your statement. rabbinical students, yeshiva students are clearly taught critical thinking skills when they analyze Torah, especially Gemara! in fact, most if not all of them will far surpass college graduates in critical thinking skills.
Back to top
Page 1 of 4 1  2  3  4  Next Recent Topics




Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Interesting Discussions

Related Topics Replies Last Post
What gift would you buy yourself for $300
by amother
42 Today at 6:08 pm View last post
I think mattresses are outdated
by amother
28 Today at 8:08 am View last post
[ Poll ] Anyone think this is taking 9x13 a little bit too far?
by amother
15 Thu, Mar 14 2024, 9:26 pm View last post
If you weigh yourself once a week...
by amother
14 Tue, Mar 12 2024, 3:36 pm View last post
Special Instructor- what do you think?
by amother
5 Wed, Mar 06 2024, 11:07 pm View last post