Do you think for yourself?

cassandra

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 9:11 pm

chayitty wrote:

stop being so against chasidish ur so sterotyping.....which is so going against everything u say

See my post above. Are you asserting that your school taught you those things?

Instead of answering my question you are responding with a knee-jerk reaction that I am "stereotyping". You cannot stereotype by asking a question.

Atali

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 9:13 pm

cassandra wrote:

Atali wrote:

Many of them would probably say, "well, that was what I was taught in school," or "this is what my parents told me", etc.

Since the trend of adolescence in this country seems to be to uproot the teachings of your parents, I would argue the opposite.

Okay, they may not say it explicitly, but their views are probably quite similar. From what I have heard, not only is critical thinking not encouraged on some campuses, but students find themselves ostracized if they have openly conservative political views. Of course, this doesn't apply everywhere, but there is some truth to it.

cassandra

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 9:15 pm

Some campuses yes, but that is because having openly conservative views is considered religious and non-thinking. I don't think it's right, and I think it is misguided, but it still goes to prove my point that critical thinking is highly valued on college campuses, even if many people have a limited view as to what critical thinking is.

chayitty

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 9:20 pm

in the chumash rashi asks critical thinking questions as deos the rambam sifsei chachumim and so on.. in every jewish subject we learn from our chauchmim...to understand a mifrush u gotta use ur head so I can easily answer yes..we were taught critical thinking
as for in english sub... we learned them from the text bookswe dwelled into them and disscused the lit.
so basically over all yes..we learned critcal thinking

Atali

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 9:21 pm

cassandra wrote:

This is my point exactly. They have the attitude of "If you agree with me, then you are thinking critically. If you don't, you are obviously not thinking".

And the same attitude applies for issues that are not (necessarily) religiously based, such as the war in Iraq, economics, illegal immigration, abortion (I know secular people who are anti-abortion)

That is not critical thinking, no matter what they call it, in the same way that calling a communist country a "republic" does not make it one

cassandra

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 9:28 pm

Atali wrote:

cassandra wrote:

right, but it still proves my point that critical thinking is valued and that most students would NOT answer that they believe things because they were taught so or their parents believe so.

cassandra

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 9:30 pm

chayitty wrote:

Using your brain is not the same as thinking critically. Is this where our misunderstanding lies? Were you taught to look at a text and ask your own questions and try to figure out the answers? Looking at someone else's critical thinking will only make you a critical thinker if you are highly intelligent and you can glean principles from Rashi. Furthermore, Rashi asks a lot of questions that he doesn't answer very well. I think Ramban is a much better perush for learning critical thinking than Rashi.

(and the Rambam's perush on chumash is very short and not well known, so I'm not sure if you actually used this in school or if you meant something else.)

And I'd love to hear more about how you analyzed texts in English class. I really would love to be proven wrong here, but so far no go.

Beauty and the Beast

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 9:51 pm

ok, I finally get what u are asking cassandra.
I remember having teachers who spoon fed us everything, and there were teachers who made us work to find answers.

But if they actually taught us to think critically? I dont think so.

but then again, I was hardly in class, so I wouldnt really remember. I will now bow out of this conversation so u can get ur answers, lol!!
I will return when I have anything to add!

Atali

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 9:52 pm

cassandra wrote:

chayitty wrote:

Well, I don't know how you were taught chumash, but we were given the opportunity to ask questions on the pasuk (why does the Torah mention this?, etc) and then to find the answers in mefarshim. And we were always allowed to (respectfully) ask questions on the answers we were given.

BTW, I didn't go to a Lubavitch school (until seminary). I went to a Litvish one.

cassandra

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 9:56 pm

Atali wrote:

Well, I don't know how you were taught chumash, but we were given the opportunity to ask questions on the pasuk (why does the Torah mention this?, etc) and then to find the answers in mefarshim.

And what if you couldn't find answers in the meforshim, or the answers didn't sit well with you?

Quote:

And we were always allowed to (respectfully) ask questions on the answers we were given.

Good.

cassandra

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 9:58 pm

Beauty and the Beast wrote:

Thanks for being straightforward...

And that fact that you CAN think critically despite your educational upbringing is a real credit to you (and your parents, maybe?) I am so impressed by the many chasidish women on this site who are real critical thinkers because it is my understanding that they were not taught to be this way in school, that the educational system places much more value on following the group rather than on thinking individually.

Atali

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 10:04 pm

cassandra wrote:

Atali wrote:

Well, I don't know how you were taught chumash, but we were given the opportunity to ask questions on the pasuk (why does the Torah mention this?, etc) and then to find the answers in mefarshim.

And what if you couldn't find answers in the meforshim, or the answers didn't sit well with you?

Quote:

And we were always allowed to (respectfully) ask questions on the answers we were given.

Good.

Good question. Usually, in such a case, one of two things would happen:

A. After more searching, we would find an acceptable answer.
B. The teacher (or as adults, ourselves) would take it to a more knowlegeble person
C. It would remain an unknown.

However, you are right that it is generally not encouraged to "come up" with our own peirushim on chumash, since doing so without the requisite prior knowledge can lead one to the wrong conclusions.

However, this in no way affects our ability to think critically in other life areas, such as choosing which car to buy, how to balance our budgets, or where to send our kids to school, etc.

Call me cynical, but I am of the opinion that most people don't think about these things (or much else for that matter). I once bought a car from an experienced car dealer, who told me that I was the fourth person he had seen in his entire career who actually read the contract before signing shock

amother

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 10:06 pm

It is davka more in the secular world. look around in the city, how many pple are wearing pumas? how many northen face jackets have you seen?
pple often ask around before buying, say a stroller. In the store, you see the model, but how do you know which will hold up better, which will feel lighter with two kids uphill, etc
It is not that they are not thinking for themselves. They will ask around for experience. Often, the best reference is word of mouth.

Maya

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 10:07 pm

cassandra wrote:

I would like to hear from the chasidish (non-Lubavitch) women here so that they can voice their own opinions as to whether or not their education taught them to think critically. Your defending it is worthless, they need to defend it for themselves.

Here is your answer: Our education did not teach us to think critically. Mos of us (note I said most,not all) go along with the flow. Many times I ask friends or family why they are doing a certain thing, or why they bought a certain new item, and the answer is often that it's because everyone else is doing/buying it. But again, not everybody. Some do like to do their own things because they have brains, and some others do their own thing just to rebel against the group.

But I'm sure you can find this type of behavior in any community the world over.

I have 12 college credits, and one of the classes I took was a critical thinking course. All it did was make me doubt whatever I read now. Sad

cassandra

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 10:10 pm

Atali wrote:

Yes, that was one of the highlights of my Bais Yaakov education. Anytime anyone would ask a good question, we'd have to wait until the next day so the teacher could "ask her husband".

Quote:

However, this in no way affects our ability to think critically in other life areas, such as choosing which car to buy, how to balance our budgets, or where to send our kids to school, etc.

Call me cynical, but I am of the opinion that most people don't think about these things (or much else for that matter). I once bought a car from an experienced car dealer, who told me that I was the fourth person he had seen in his entire career who actually read the contract before signing shock

True. Being able to form a coherent argument does not always translate to the real world.