And who might you be?

wif

Thu, Mar 13 2008, 3:45 pm

I love this site for providing me with such a vast cross-section of observant Jewish life. Every poster writes with her own unique perspective and reflects the place where she is coming from hashkafically. As a student of human nature, I'd love for all of you to answer one question that I have.

I'll preface.

I grew up, as my husband put it in disbelief, "a total out-of-towner in the heart of brooklyn!" It's true. My parents, to varying degrees, are BTs, maybe that had something to do with it. I never really understood labels. I remember hearing the words "litvish" and "chassidish" for the first time when I was already in junior high. I asked my mother which one we were. She answered, "we are just plain frum." Okay. That was good enough for me.

I still don't hold any stock in labels, though I do see that they are sometimes a sort of cognitive shortcut, and can be useful at times. (and dangerous, too...)

So! My question is thus. When you hold that you are "X" on the spectrum, what does that mean to you? When you say you are yeshivish, or modern orthodox, or chassidish, what does that hold for you? What cognitive shortcut would you like people to take? What does your orientation on the observant cross-section identify you as?

FrumWithPCOS

Thu, Mar 13 2008, 5:07 pm

Okay, I'll take a stab at it.

I view myself as yeshivish. I'm from out of town, though, so that's a very different kind of yeshivish, I think. To me it means that dh and I very strongly identify with yeshivos and rabbanim. We ask our rav a LOT of questions, both halachic and hashkafic, and we respect rabbanim. Dh learns right now, and he will IY"H continue to learn as much as he can, even once he starts working. We believe that it's important to keep the garbage in the outside world away from us, even though we know that we will need to be open to it to some degree (e.g. we don't have a TV, we don't have internet at home - we will when I IY"H start telecommuting - but with many gedarim, we don't even get the newspaper or listen to the radio - gasp!). I know that some of these things can apply to people from other backgrounds as well, but as a sum total, this pretty much defines our hashkafa. (I'm in a rush, so I might have left something out.)

(A couple of notes on labels:

I was talking to someone about a shidduch for a friend of mine, and she asked if the person is yeshivish or if her family is yeshivish. I said yes, they're definitely yeshivish. Then I stopped and said - "Well, they're out of town yeshivish. What do you mean by yeshivish?"

Her response was "People who get caught up in 'shtick'."

"In that case," I said, "This girl is most definitely not yeshivish." "Phew," she said. "Because the boy's not either. He learns in yeshiva, and my husband is learning full-time too, but I wouldn't call either of us yeshivish."

Of course, shidduchim are odd, because I was trying to set up a friend of mine with a boy who was "modern, but very frum." My friend would describe herself the same way. We set them up...and apparently the guy mentioned something about going to bars often...and didn't understand why she thought it was a problem. I guess her (and my!) definition of "modern" is a bit different than his.

Shidduchim more than anything else have opened up my eyes to the fact that labels mean absolutely nothing.

If I've offended anyone in this post, I've probably offended everyone...Does that make it better?)

wif

Fri, Mar 14 2008, 3:37 am

This is all so interesting.

I am also curious about the role of livush. I grew up near Boropark, where this thing called "steimels and slits" abounded. Meaning, I guess, the men wore traditional chassidish livush, and the women dressed in a way that would not be recognized in pre-war Europe. What does that mean? I assume that it's all about traditions, and nothing to do with chassidish culture? Maybe the opposite of what you were saying, Mah Pitom?

FrumwithPCOS, thank you for that interesting analysis!

Also, for those who call themselves MO, and keep all halacha, what does the "M" mean, then? Hope that is not offensive--really just want to know.

mimivan

Fri, Mar 14 2008, 4:14 am

I think of Lubavitch as an identity and not a label...If someone is Lubavitch, to me at least, it means they follow the Lubavitcher Rebbe, who said, among other things, that women should wear sheitels, men should not trim their beards etc...

I've met a few people who don't do the above things and call themselves Lubavitch. In my mind, that's their business. Wink

I have trouble thinking of Lubavitch, chassidish and Litvish as Labels..once it becomes just a "label" then it seems like the fire is already dying...I think people tend to call these things labels when they are leaving that derech (I.e. "I don't want the label") or don't identify with the group.

ChossidMom

Fri, Mar 14 2008, 5:48 am

ooooooh. Interesting thread. I wish I had more time but I have to pick up my kids.

For the moment I'll just say that I grew up in a more modern home. Got married 15 years ago to a real chossid, levush and all.

If you think a woman aged 31 can change overnight you've got something else coming LOL.

Most people probably don't look at me and think "chossid" (ask the women that met me at the Yerushalayim meet). Not that there is anything inherently "non tznius" about me. I just don't look like what you would imagine, is your "typical chossid" (if there is such a thing).

I believe that externals are just that - externals. My husband also does not buy into the levush thing, although he looks like the real chossid, that he is. He NEVER ever judges a person by their outer trappings.

Interestingly enough, there are all kinds of people who come to Amshinov to be near the rebbe and some want to take off their old levush and put on a spodik and kapote. Often the rebbe is against this. He has no problem with a Jew wearing a kippa seruga (horror of horrors LOL

) or whatever his levush is.

The only thing externals does is help you identify and "belong" to a certain group (which also has its importance).

More on this when I'm not rushed.

amother

Fri, Mar 14 2008, 6:04 am

Quote:

Also, for those who call themselves MO, and keep all halacha, what does the "M" mean, then? Hope that is not offensive--really just want to know.

In theory:

I think that the "modern" stands for an openness and willingness to engage in the secular world, particular secular areas of study, viewing such as a positive thing (rather than a necessary evil done strictly for parnassah), and as a means of elevating the secular world by interacting in it as an halachically observant Jew. Furthermore, modern in the U.S. indicates some kind of belief that the modern state of Israel has religious significance. Finally, chumros are viewed not as something which should be required of an entire community, but rather taken on by individuals seeking a particular spiritual benefit from the chumrah.

In practice:

While there are certainly many MO who are very careful with halacha, all too often we do see individuals that hide behind the label as an excuse when they aren't so careful with halacha - not even by the standards of their own rabbi! Time and again I've seen that the MO who are very observant quit identifying with MO and identify more with the yeshivish world (or go by "just plain frum"). Are they really yeshivish? Well, that's another issue - veneration of yeshivos and rabbanim, tznius, carefulness with halacha, all of this they have in common, and that's not insignificant. But there is still a disjoint between them in some ways...of course it all depends on how you define yeshivish :-)

FrumWithPCOS

Fri, Mar 14 2008, 9:14 am

Amother - ...in which case, I guess I fall under the modern label (except perhaps on the State of Israel thing, and I may not take the "secular world" thing quite as far - but as you noted, those are both modern "and in theory" and not necessarily modern "in practice.").

Mimivan - I guess that's why I think of these things as labels. I'm close friends with girls that consider themselves "modern" and others that consider themselves "yeshivish." If you met one of each and started talking to them, I don't know that you'd be able to tell the difference. They're hashkafically similar enough that it's hard to "tell them apart." I have one friend who grew up so proud to be "modern," but then realized that many of the people in her community didn't keep the basics of halacha (I'm not saying all modern people are like this, but this was what she told me about people she was exposed to). It was an eye-opening experience for her, so she tried on the label of "yeshivish" for a little while...until she realized that hashkafically she didn't feel comfortable with a lot of the things they did either. So she lives in the modern world, is very open to the yeshiva world, and is trying to find a "modern orthodox super-machmir" or "atypical yeshivish" world to fit into...and hasn't been successful yet.

You say "once it becomes just a label it means the fire is already dying." I don't know, I think my fire is very much alive. I am definitely passionate...not about being yeshivish, but about being frum, loving Torah, wanting to build a home based on Torah and emunas chachamim, helping all of klal yisroel to awaken their own passion towards frumkeit...

(As an aside, I could see lubavich and other forms of chassidism - and maybe even sfardim - as being different. They very strongly stand behind the opinion of one rav, have their own unique minhagim. While I think it's definitely important for them, too, to feel passionate towards being "just plain frum," I can definitely see why identifying with that sect could be important to them.)

cassandra

Fri, Mar 14 2008, 9:28 am

I call myself "modern orthodox" even though most others like me probably don't.

To me it means an embrace of the secular world, both academic and popular, in a way that can align with my Jewish practice. If there is a clash between the secular and the religious I will try my best to reconcile to two and if that isn't possible always defer to Torah.

It also means to me that there is a strong element of independent thinking. We don't go to Rabbonim with every little concern and our Rabbanim will only answer clear halachic matters definitively. (They are there if you need advice, but make it clear that they are suggestions that do not carry weight.) This goes for life questions and hashkafic matters... people ask questions but they also tend to find their own way.

Halachic practice does not tend to go l'chumra and does not determine halacha from kabbalistic sources. That is not to say that we are meikil on everything, but that chumra is not the guiding principle of psak, logic and halachic observance in real life are. Because we tend to be out there in the secular world in greater numbers some of our psakim reflect that reality.

That's mainly why I define myself as MO.

Ruchel

Fri, Mar 14 2008, 9:44 am

As a French person, our labels are a bit more lax. It's easier to be considered any level.

Despite I have noticed some people on board hate it, the most common label among the frum here is "Orthodox". I have come to understand our Orthodox would be considered machmir MO in Israel, except our labels don't have a Zionism connotation.
Basically Orthodox is "just plain frum". The frummer ones call themselves (so, don't bash...) ultra Orthodox. Most of the time they have another label like Litvish or Chabad. They follow the standards of these communities, but often less "detail oriented" than what I see on boards. I see Chabad ladies in tichel, Litvish girls without tights in summer... sometimes.

And then we have modern Orthodox, clearly divided into "more or less light", that is those who are MO because they keep halacha but cut corners a lot. And those who are strict - modern because they are less frum than the Orthodox, but you don't see them doing really "wow worthy" corner cutting... they try their best.

As for Zionism, you will find those calling themselves Zionist or not in all labels. University, well only the most machmir ultra Orthodox say it is assur, period (my husband was pushed by his very Litvish rav to get a degree).

(I consider myself machmir MO).

Mimisinger

Fri, Mar 14 2008, 10:54 am

Ok, my turn. I label myself as just plain frum, but a friend on the same derech as I considers herself modern yeshivish. So, that's what I'll be Smile

.

I'm tznius, cover my hair, keep all the halachot to the best of our ability. Dh wears (gasp!) a kippa seruga, but that's because his Rav did. However, he probably would wear a hat over the ks if he found one that fit (but not a reg. borsalino type). Dh works - actually is in school getting his phd in Biology. He learns every day has a chavrusa several times/week, teaches a daf yomi shiur on shabbos and davens with a minyan 3x/day. Oh and we did shana rishona in Israel, dh was in kollel and I was in seminary.

We don't have a tv, but we do have internet and the NYTimes. We are very much into secular education, but Iy"H our children will go to yeshiva's - meaning separate schools for girls and boys.

We are all for the real world, as long as it's kosher. Meaning, while dating/engaged ? we went to Lincoln Center to hear the orchestra. It turns out, a woman was singing that night, so dh walked out when she walked in.

Any other questions? Please ask.

Oh, and we're both bt's so we've kind of had to find our own way. But we do call our Rav several times a week to ask questions.