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Improving Jewish Literature (merged)
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HooRYou




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 31 2008, 3:26 am
creativemommyto3 wrote:
Who is with me and wants to try to make jewish literature more inviting besides those novels that come out all the time???


Me!!!
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creativemommyto3




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 31 2008, 3:29 am
Ok, how do we start?
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 31 2008, 3:47 am
creativemommyto3 wrote:
Ok, how do we start?


Unfortunately I'm not sure it is possible. Most good literature consists of change. The person goes from A to B. But there is so much in a Torah story that one couldn't talk about, couldn't say etc. etc. Certainly Torah principles would have to be upheld. But that sort of takes much of the surprise out of the novel. One kind of knows the end at the begining.

There are stories that make it IMHO. Rb Nachum's fairytales are fascinating...and they are clean. But fairytales have a certain pattern that is established and expected and wanted. The good will overcome, the story is in how.

But in a normal fiction book the drama is what is the character going to do? How will the person change and grow? The conflict is the driving force.

I think kosher stories have to step away from "Torah triumphs" stories to stories where frum people are doing life and they triumph, perhaps with Torah values, but with those values that most people consider important; courage, caring, risking one's life for others or for a good cause, as well as using logic and reasoning to overcome a problem or situation. BUT the problm shouldn't be one of bringing someone closer to yiddishkeit (that could be a side value). That should not be so overt though as to be seen as the real reason D'vorah Manes rescued the busload of kids from the crazy killer.
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HooRYou




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 31 2008, 4:08 am
That is part of the problem with a lot of Frum novels. The struggle is there, but it almost always has a very pat happy ending (child survives disease, single person completes dream shidduch, couple rebuild shalom bayis etc.) and then everyone lives happily ever after. But as we all know well life isn't like that and when and if you past the first test you get the next, sometimes even as a direct result of the first test that you thought you "passed".
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creativemommyto3




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 31 2008, 6:11 am
One way we can start is to ask ppl to start writing. I keep on meaning to go to those writing workshops. Maybe I wil start to go. maybe soon you will see a new book by me. I always wanted to do writing I was just too chicken.
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wif




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 31 2008, 8:19 am
HooRYou wrote:
That is part of the problem with a lot of Frum novels. The struggle is there, but it almost always has a very pat happy ending (child survives disease, single person completes dream shidduch, couple rebuild shalom bayis etc.) and then everyone lives happily ever after. But as we all know well life isn't like that and when and if you past the first test you get the next, sometimes even as a direct result of the first test that you thought you "passed".


All that is true...but the reason that reading Jewish novels for me is trial by fire is the writing! Oh Holy Hemingway, the writing STINKS! It makes me cry! I cannot read a magazine. I cannot read a novel. I cannot read any of that stuff unless I did something very very bad. Then I must read as a punishment.

The prose! The poems!


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!! My eyes!
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suomynona




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 31 2008, 8:28 am
wif wrote:
HooRYou wrote:
That is part of the problem with a lot of Frum novels. The struggle is there, but it almost always has a very pat happy ending (child survives disease, single person completes dream shidduch, couple rebuild shalom bayis etc.) and then everyone lives happily ever after. But as we all know well life isn't like that and when and if you past the first test you get the next, sometimes even as a direct result of the first test that you thought you "passed".


All that is true...but the reason that reading Jewish novels for me is trial by fire is the writing! Oh Holy Hemingway, the writing STINKS! It makes me cry! I cannot read a magazine. I cannot read a novel. I cannot read any of that stuff unless I did something very very bad. Then I must read as a punishment.

The prose! The poems!


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!! My eyes!

I agree. I think the writing is a worse problem than the plots.
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mimivan




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 31 2008, 8:31 am
wif wrote:
HooRYou wrote:
That is part of the problem with a lot of Frum novels. The struggle is there, but it almost always has a very pat happy ending (child survives disease, single person completes dream shidduch, couple rebuild shalom bayis etc.) and then everyone lives happily ever after. But as we all know well life isn't like that and when and if you past the first test you get the next, sometimes even as a direct result of the first test that you thought you "passed".


All that is true...but the reason that reading Jewish novels for me is trial by fire is the writing! Oh Holy Hemingway, the writing STINKS! It makes me cry! I cannot read a magazine. I cannot read a novel. I cannot read any of that stuff unless I did something very very bad. Then I must read as a punishment.

The prose! The poems!


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!! My eyes!


Wif...hey! why don't you write something..!
I can see you have talent...c'mon, break the curve...it desperately needs to be broken with some quality work!
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Mama Bear




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 31 2008, 8:38 am
Whoever has not reaad DOUBLE LIVES by Mama bear has not read quality jewish writing, which does NOT end with the knots tied into neat packages... Smile
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mimivan




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 31 2008, 9:21 am
Mama Bear wrote:
Whoever has not reaad DOUBLE LIVES by Mama bear has not read quality jewish writing, which does NOT end with the knots tied into neat packages... Smile


Where can I find it (I live in Israel)
(you can pm me...I would like to read what you write)
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wif




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 31 2008, 1:33 pm
mimivan wrote:
wif wrote:
HooRYou wrote:
That is part of the problem with a lot of Frum novels. The struggle is there, but it almost always has a very pat happy ending (child survives disease, single person completes dream shidduch, couple rebuild shalom bayis etc.) and then everyone lives happily ever after. But as we all know well life isn't like that and when and if you past the first test you get the next, sometimes even as a direct result of the first test that you thought you "passed".


All that is true...but the reason that reading Jewish novels for me is trial by fire is the writing! Oh Holy Hemingway, the writing STINKS! It makes me cry! I cannot read a magazine. I cannot read a novel. I cannot read any of that stuff unless I did something very very bad. Then I must read as a punishment.

The prose! The poems!


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!! My eyes!


Wif...hey! why don't you write something..!
I can see you have talent...c'mon, break the curve...it desperately needs to be broken with some quality work!


Actually...shh...it's a work in progress...but am perfectionist. So it might take around, oh, a million years for me to be happy enough with it to send it out. To get butchered by the editor who never even stepped foot into college.

Me? So not bitter.

But thanks so much for the vote of confidence! Look out for your name in the "I couldn't have done it without" section.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 31 2008, 3:25 pm
I think about the problem of Jewish literature constantly -- why do we have such great writers and such lousy books?

One of the problems, IMHO, is that many of us who love books love them precisely because they provide an escape or a vacation from our day-to-day lives. Truthfully, I'm not sure I want to read a book about the kind of people and community I live in -- no matter how well-plotted or written. I'd prefer to take a trip into someone else's world for an hour, then come back refreshed to tackle my own.
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creativemommyto3




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 31 2008, 3:29 pm
Mama Bear wrote:
Whoever has not reaad DOUBLE LIVES by Mama bear has not read quality jewish writing, which does NOT end with the knots tied into neat packages... Smile


I LOVE that book!!!!! When is the sequel coming out??? Oh, you put me in the mood for that book!!!! no, I cant' afford to lose sleep in the middle of pesach prep Sad
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momof6




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 31 2008, 3:33 pm
There is great reading (great audio and video too)material on chabad.org and pesach.org (entertaining, stimulating, thought provocing and pure escapest stuff, written by Jews of all stripes- I personally can't get enough)
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cdawnr




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 31 2008, 3:37 pm
wif wrote:
HooRYou wrote:
That is part of the problem with a lot of Frum novels. The struggle is there, but it almost always has a very pat happy ending (child survives disease, single person completes dream shidduch, couple rebuild shalom bayis etc.) and then everyone lives happily ever after. But as we all know well life isn't like that and when and if you past the first test you get the next, sometimes even as a direct result of the first test that you thought you "passed".


All that is true...but the reason that reading Jewish novels for me is trial by fire is the writing! Oh Holy Hemingway, the writing STINKS! It makes me cry! I cannot read a magazine. I cannot read a novel. I cannot read any of that stuff unless I did something very very bad. Then I must read as a punishment.

The prose! The poems!


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!! My eyes!



OMG I SO agree! And then everyone else in the community thinks they are so great. But I will say that there ha been improvement in the last 10 yrs...I really believe that.

I was a Creative Writing major in college, but after I became frum I found it very difficult to write within all the parameters of my beliefs (tznius, moral, etc) without it seeming horribly contrived.

Maybe soemday.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 31 2008, 3:42 pm
Fox wrote:
I think about the problem of Jewish literature constantly -- why do we have such great writers and such lousy books?

One of the problems, IMHO, is that many of us who love books love them precisely because they provide an escape or a vacation from our day-to-day lives. Truthfully, I'm not sure I want to read a book about the kind of people and community I live in -- no matter how well-plotted or written. I'd prefer to take a trip into someone else's world for an hour, then come back refreshed to tackle my own.


I do enjoy reading books about other cultures, but I prefer books that have something familiar in them. So I enjoy a book abouyt a frum or Jewish family over one about hindus, and I also enjoy books that take palce in familiar locations.

mama bear, pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze publish double lives. (Im sure you could put the money to good use!) and write another! I'm sure you'd enjoy it more than ebay selling.
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 31 2008, 3:49 pm
I just stopped reading. I don't listen tomusic eithr.
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wif




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 31 2008, 5:15 pm
cdawnr wrote:
wif wrote:
HooRYou wrote:
That is part of the problem with a lot of Frum novels. The struggle is there, but it almost always has a very pat happy ending (child survives disease, single person completes dream shidduch, couple rebuild shalom bayis etc.) and then everyone lives happily ever after. But as we all know well life isn't like that and when and if you past the first test you get the next, sometimes even as a direct result of the first test that you thought you "passed".


All that is true...but the reason that reading Jewish novels for me is trial by fire is the writing! Oh Holy Hemingway, the writing STINKS! It makes me cry! I cannot read a magazine. I cannot read a novel. I cannot read any of that stuff unless I did something very very bad. Then I must read as a punishment.

The prose! The poems!


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!! My eyes!



OMG I SO agree! And then everyone else in the community thinks they are so great. But I will say that there ha been improvement in the last 10 yrs...I really believe that.

I was a Creative Writing major in college, but after I became frum I found it very difficult to write within all the parameters of my beliefs (tznius, moral, etc) without it seeming horribly contrived.

Maybe soemday.


I really hear you. Actually, I started having a problem writing when I found myself and became happy...tortured artist and all that cliche. Can't have it all, I guess.
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 31 2008, 6:14 pm
HooRYou wrote:
That is part of the problem with a lot of Frum novels. The struggle is there, but it almost always has a very pat happy ending (child survives disease, single person completes dream shidduch, couple rebuild shalom bayis etc.) and then everyone lives happily ever after. But as we all know well life isn't like that and when and if you past the first test you get the next, sometimes even as a direct result of the first test that you thought you "passed".


This isn't true for every Jewish novel. There are a few good ones.

Family Secrets and One Day and Forever by Sarah Birnhack do not fall into this basic frum scheme.

Does anyone know if she's written anything else?
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amother


 

Post Mon, Mar 31 2008, 6:20 pm
Where can we get Double Lives???
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