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Forum -> Household Management -> Kosher Kitchen
Do you use a blech?



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Pearl




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 27 2005, 9:00 am
asking for a friend who wants to buy one, and she needs usa/canada info!


do you use a blech?

http://www.milechai.com/judaica/kdeirah.html

how much did you pay for it?
how long do they last?
do you like using them?

any advise is welcome!
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Tovah




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 27 2005, 9:28 am
the best place to buy a blech is ny, if ur talking abt the electric ones. they last abt a yr and are around 60.

u can't use one for shabbas u can't use one as the temp is abit to high I think but ask a rav.
also unless food is on the blech before hand u can't put it on on shabbos as that would be cooking.

best bet is to ask a rav.
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Pearl




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 27 2005, 9:39 am
she did, and her rav said that the blech like shown on the link I posted is kosher.
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 27 2005, 11:06 am
A regular metal blech could be around $25. depends on the size, how many burners you are covering. I'm talking about a 30 inch stove. How long does it last? indefinitely. Cleaning them - I use the cold grease spray (shunamit bagil) but it takes off the shiny finish, what do I care, it's been off for years anyway.

do I like using them? How does anyone manage without one?

I don't use a crock pot, and always make cholent, summer included.

The blech is also good for YomTov warming up foods, while you go to shul and daven, it will be ready to serve when you come home. ( this only works with low flame! I leave on medium for YomTov and don't do that, but my SIL always does it.)

Before you put on the blech, put on a very low flame. I usually have 3 low flames going, sometimes 4. It holds soup, chicken, kugel, cholent, lukshen, veg. side dish, everything is piping hot and delicious!

There are many halachos to learn about using the blech. "CHAZZARAH", returning something to the blech (on Shabbos) that you took off is only possible with several stipulations :
1)you held on to the pot the entire time, did not put it down,
2)had specifically in mind to return it when you were taking it off
3)the food was entirely cooked when you took it off (NOT maachal ben drusai)
4)It is still somewhat hot, did not cool off entirely
5)The food is in its original keli; was not transferred to another
vessel.

Some scenarios: You want to give a child a piece of kugel, or bowl of soup after licht bentshen, and then return the pot to the blech. You must lift the pot off the blech, and get someone to hold the lid, and ladle out the soup, without putting the pot down!

(If the pot is too heavy, there is a leniency that allows you to support the pot by partially leaning it onto [not putting it down on] the counter, while still holding it up with your hand, so that without the hand the pot would fall. [One should not just hold on to a pot that is in reality supported by the counter. The hand has to contribute to the stability of the pot.]

You are not allowed to serve from the blech, because putting a spoon into or stirring something that is on the fire (even the blech) is hagasah and constitutes bishul.

So you must remove the pot in order to serve. One also may not cover a pot while it is on the fire because it aids the cooking process. One must return the cover to the pot while it is off the blech.

Also, if the condensation in the pot cover cooled off entirely while serving from the pot, one must wipe it dry before putting it back on, because "yesh bishul achar bishul b'davar lach" reheating cooled off liquid constitutes bishul.


One must put the food on the blech before Shabbos. once in a while I realize there is a pot that was supposed to go on, after I already benched licht. I may not put it on then.


Last edited by TzenaRena on Thu, Oct 27 2005, 11:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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Pearl




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 27 2005, 11:08 am
thank you, that's very helpful!!!!
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smily




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 27 2005, 12:22 pm
thankyou SaraYehudis. How important is someone holding the lid? What if you don't have a second person?
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 27 2005, 1:45 pm
interesting. I've been looking through the sefer Shabbos K'Halacha from Rabbi Yekusiel Farkash, and trying to see what he says about having to hold onto the lid of the pot. He doesn't seem to say anything about that! (unless I'm missing it). Not that he has nothing to say about the lids altogether; he writes about pot covers in the context of making sure that the condensation , which often cools while the portions are being served, must be wiped dry before replacing the lid, if not it is bishul! I will try to find out.

According to his opinion, one who covers a pot while on the blech is only chayav if the food is not completely cooked - kol tzorchoi, because adding (or putting back) the lid increases the heat in the pot and speeds the cooking, also amounting to hagasah, but if the food was completely cooked, he brings many opinions and proofs that it's not. There are rishonim who write otherwise, but he says it's not about what we're discussing and brings logical proofs. Something new.

Also, he says one may move the pot to a place on the blech that is not over the fire, that is Yad Soledes Bo, but does not have the capacity to bring the food to that temperature,and serve from there, but only if it is completely cooked - nisbashel kol tzorkoi, otherwise, if not completely, and thoroughly cooked throughout, it is meigis, stirring and aids the cooking process, and forbidden, and besides it will be chayav to return the pot to the previous place over the fire.

Not only that, even after a pot is removed from the blech, but it has pieces or parts that were not thoroughly and completely cooked, one may not put a spoon in to serve Exclamation because of meigis, but must wait till it cools off to less than Yad Soledes Bo, or: first spill the food out of the kli rishon, over to another keli, and only then serve from the second kli.


Last edited by TzenaRena on Thu, Oct 27 2005, 5:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 27 2005, 4:52 pm
OK, it is confirmed. I had the opportunity to ask a Rav, who said one does not have to hold onto the cover of the pot (only the pot itself), when removing from the blech with intent to return it, if the food is completely, thoroughly cooked - mevushal kol tzorchoi. In fact one may even put on a lid that was not there before, if it meets that condition.

My assumption was based on the practice in my husband's family. (It could be that there is room for this as a more machmir opinion(?)My FIL a'h was very scrupulous and G-d fearing in all matters, especially halacha.)

Quote:
Also, he says one may move the pot to a place on the blech that is not over the fire, and serve from there, but only if it is completely cooked - nisbashel kol tzorkoi, otherwise, if not completely, and thoroughly cooked throughout, it is meigis, stirring and aids the cooking process, and forbidden, and besides it will be 'chayav' to return the pot to the previous place over the fire


To add a correction: The right thing to do to serve from the pot is to TAKE IT OFF THE BLECH, WITH INTENT TO RETURN IT, HOLDING ON TO IT, AND NOT PUTTING IT DOWN.

If the pot is extremely heavy and unweildy, b'shaas hadchak, under very difficult circumstances, one may move the pot on the blech off of the fire, to a place that itself is YAD SOLEDES BO, but does NOT have the capacity to bring the food to that temperature, All this is only if the food is completely and thoroughly cooked!, and all other conditions for Chazzarah are met.


Last edited by TzenaRena on Thu, Oct 27 2005, 5:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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proudmom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 27 2005, 5:08 pm
I use an electric blech and I am really happy with it.
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chen




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 27 2005, 5:13 pm
it's not a question of liking using a blech--how can you manage without one? in summer I use an electic pump-pot for water and serve cold food for lunch, but in winter??

Everything I say is for a gas stove. Electric stoves work differently, and the ones with sealed cooktops may not be able to take a blech at all. for years I used tin blechs which are cheap and look terrible after only a few uses. then I discovered aluminum blechs. in boro park a big one to cover all 4 burners of a 30-inch stove was about $18 about 7 years ago: most likely the price has gone up since then. You can scour it with steel wool, which is why I got it, but eventually stuff will spill and get baked on and be impossible to remove. when I cleaned my oven, some of the spray got on the blech and made little spots, but, seriously, who cares? I scour it now & then when it gets really repulsive but am resigned to the baked-on black spots. also, these things warp from the heat. now and then I hammer it a little to starighten it out but you can never get it really straight. again, who cares?

if your friend is in the boonies, she can simply go to a hardware store or home-decorating place like home depot and ask them to cut her a piece of sheet aluminum of the size she wants and fold the edges under. (Very important! the edges of cut sheet metal are like razor blades!) I went to a hardware store in my neighborhood and asked fro a piece of sheet metal, and the guy behind the counter said "in other words, you want a blech"! He wasn't frum, but his grandfather, who started the business, was.

in theory the blech can last forever, but considering how inexpensive it is, after 10 or 20 years you can probably treat yourself to a new one.

there is also something called an unblech, which is like a very shallow aluminum box with a fitted cover. You fill it with water and put that on the stove. In theory the heat distribution is even all over because the water circulates all over. in practice, the water over the flame gets hotter than water elsewhere and so you still get hot spots--but the hot spots are no hotter than the boiling point of water. food is thus less likely to burn if the flame gets too high. my friend has had one for 5 years and has never had anything burn.
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613




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 27 2005, 5:24 pm
pearl, are you specifically asking about the unblech, or blechs in general?
I use a metal blech (on top of my gas stove). I keep things on it fri. night and they are piping- but I have had things burn on it, too.
on shabbos day, I can only put dry items on the blech on areas NOT over the flame- so it warms them, but I could do the same by putting it on my crockpot cover.

I think my dh asked about using an unblech (or something) similar, and we were told that we couldn't. (because k'dairah al gabei k'dairah is to solve the problem of mechzay k'bishul, but the unblech still looks like bishul)

ETA: R' Ribiat's book is where my dh read that one may not use that type of blech.


Last edited by 613 on Mon, Oct 31 2005, 2:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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shanie5




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 27 2005, 5:58 pm
I dont have a blech. I keep the soup warm on a low flame friday night, and once its off, I just dont put anything on the flame.
I use a crock pot for my cholent and the top of the crockpot to warm anything else up
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nicole81




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 27 2005, 6:00 pm
after the fire in williamsburg last year, it is in my lease that I can't use a blech.
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RedVines




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 27 2005, 6:41 pm
Doesnt the house get sooooo warm? And you cant even use it on shabbos day....so I only use it on yom tov.
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Tovah




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 27 2005, 7:44 pm
sorry pearl didn't read the link. we got ours at the hard ware store.
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Oct 30 2005, 11:56 am
mommyoftwo wrote:
Doesnt the house get sooooo warm? And you cant even use it on shabbos day....so I only use it on yom tov.


Actually, it's great for the winter, which here in NY is bet. 7 and 8 mos. It doesn't get hot till June, and October is already chilly. You don't need to use all the flames, which in any case you set for very low, I.e. simmering.

In the summer we have airconditioning, which counters the effect.

Quote:
after the fire in williamsburg last year, it is in my lease that I can't use a blech.
Didn't that fire start from a Pesach stove, set up with a wooden backsplash, if I'm not mistaken? Regular ranges have a metal backsplash, and wouldn't overheat in the same manner Question
What will be in the lease next? Don't light Shabbos candles, or Chanukah candles?And I think the fire dept. wouldn't allow ovens to be left on for the duration of YomTov either....

Seriously we all need to pay attention to fire saftey rules of course. However, we should not be afraid to do our mitzvos, which throughout the ages have been kept in much more primitive conditions than we know of in our modern times, in which definitely we can accomplish them safely, just taking proper precautions.

BTW, one hazard is tea-lights. If you set them directly on the surface, or not heavy metal tray, you are asking for trouble chv.

We personally had a guest once for Shabbos Chanukah, a bochur who lit his Chanukah candles (olive oil) in tea light cups and set them up directly on a vinyl covered wooden stepladder, no tray. After licht benchen, I noticed it, and held my breath, imagining the heat eating through the vinyl to the wood. I didn't know if there was anything I could do. Everyone had already left to shul for Kabbolas Shabbos.

Somehow, during the rest of the evening I was able to relax, but don't you think the next day I saw that there were 3 tealight size holes and one smaller (shamash-size) hole in the vinyl, with blackened circles around them! B'H' it didn't get through the wood.

A neighbor had a similar occurence, where a guest lit tea lights on a mylar tray, on her wooden side board, which ate through the tray to the wooden side board, which caught fire, and getting charred. ( I don't know exactly how they handled it, being it was Shabbos, but B'H it got no further).

Another neighbor lit her own Shabbos candles on a wooden sideboard, using tea lights, and a disposable aluminum pan. Somehow, all the candles melted together, and rose up in huge flames that threatened to catch on to the wall and the sideboard. A non-Jewish neighbor extinguished the flames, but we found out later we would have been allowed to, ourselves, because of Pikuach Nefesh.
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smily




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2005, 10:05 am
I dont have a blech. I keep the soup warm on a low flame friday night, and once its off, I just don't put anything on the flame.

Check with your local Rabbi if this is allowed????????
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chen




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2005, 2:22 pm
If you live in the NYC Metro area, PLEASE call 212-746-5317 (Cornell Burn Center) and ask for a free copy of Burn Wise: Burn Prevention Information of Special Interest to Observant Jews. If you don't live in NY, ask a friend who does to get a copy for you! The lives you save may be your own.
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