Shaking hands in business world - dealing with Shomer Negiah

sunshine!

Mon, Apr 14 2008, 7:38 pm

Just a little story about this topic... I hav a cousin who is chasiddish (very) and brilliant...she works for the US Navy and she often has situations where it would be proper (by etiquette) for her to shake hands with men. However she took upon herself that this was one area where she would be machmir, and she was able to stick to it. Until.... she had to meet the Admiral...Long story how she got to that point but just so you know, the admiral is the highest ranking in the navy...and it is a huge honor to meet with him. Well, she didn't know what to do, so she called a Rav to ask him to write a letter explaining that our religion dictates that men shake hands with men and women with women, and his response to her request was to immediately give her a heter, which she did not want to accept....End of story was that she confided in a non jewish co-worker, who wrote up a glowing letter of accomplishments that my cousin managed to pull off for the navy and somewhere in this he put in the lines about men and women shaking hands with their own gender , due to religion....She had no clue that he did this and was so nervous, but when she finally got there and there were lines and lines of naval officers with the admiral at the head, she just decided then and there that she would pull out that heter she got and just do it....until a woman that they specifically hired for just this cause scampered out, and shook my cousin's hand firmly....welcoming her on behalf of the admiral and the navy....What a kiddush Hashem that was!!!

gryp

Mon, Apr 14 2008, 7:55 pm

I simply say: "Sorry, I don't shake, I'm religious," or something to that extent.
Sometimes it takes some more explaining, other times not. It could get awkward but you just smooth things over by showing you have no ill feelings in the rest of the meeting. Lots of men have taken it very well.

Once I really did catch someone off-guard by saying that and he was really insulted no matter how much I tried to explain it to him. What could I do, it was just his personality.

Most of the people I've said this to happened to be Jewish (but not observant) and have been very gracious.

yentaof8

Mon, Apr 14 2008, 9:38 pm

Sunshine, great story! Here's what happened to a relative of mine: (I'm going to leave out specifics since he may not want to be exposed)
He was to meet the female head of an exclusive establishment who he sensed would be offended but still was not willing to compromise. Sure enough, she was insulted and wouldn't return his calls. Until one day, she called him to say - I'm so glad you told me that you couldn't shake my hand because when the Satmar Rebbe came to visit, I would've been extremely embarressed if I extended my hand to shake his - Thanks to you I knew better not to. My relative was so relieved that he didn't give in because then he would've been the hypocrite.

flowerpower

Mon, Apr 14 2008, 9:48 pm

justanothermother-I need one of those!

I worked in a school ,a new special ed school that was trying to keep their standards high. the professor from columbia university came for a big visit and the boss was really nervous and wanted to impress him. the big bald guy came and of course he came over to me first and sticks out his hand.....I told him that we dont shake hands...I think it was the first time he heard it, it wasnt the easiest moment

happy

Mon, Apr 14 2008, 10:58 pm

More often then not, the situation is completely avoided because the men tell me- I can see you are religious and I know not to offer to shake your hand. At those beautiful moments I thank all the women who he met previously who so kindly explained it so I wouldn't have to. so next time the situation presents itself think of it as not only are you avoiding a potential halachic issue but you are helping out the next frum women he meets!!!!!!! Very Happy

leomom

Mon, Apr 14 2008, 11:27 pm

Right! I recently had a garage sale and someone came to buy some stuff we had talked about on the phone. When he arrived, he walked up to me, introduced himself -- his name was Christopher -- and extended his hand to shake. I smiled and said, "Sorry, I don't shake hands." To which he responded, and I quote: "Oh, are you shomer negiah?" shock

This guy was NOT Jewish. Of course I asked him how he knew about shomer negiah! He told me that he has a theater company that does audience-participation "mystery" shows for organizations. Well, they once did a show for a frum group of some kind, and the actors were all prepped beforehand not to shake hands with people when they went out to interact with the audience. Someone had explained to them all about negiah.

I was amazed that he remembered the term, and he was amazingly respectful of the fact that I don't shake hands.

I do think that the more people see that (many) frum women don't shake hands, the easier and less awkward it gets for everyone. It's really not a big deal!

mumoo

Mon, Apr 14 2008, 11:30 pm

I say, (with a smile) I don't shake. If asked, I explain, "the only man I touch is my husband." If pressed, I'll say its a religion thing.

Once when working at a (cons.) synagogue, a man offered his hand. I didn't offer mine, and said, "I don't shake." The man smiled, and said warmly, "Oh, I understand," while he clapped me gently on the shoulder shock

amother

Mon, Apr 14 2008, 11:37 pm

Tehilla wrote:

while it is important to find a way to refuse shaking hands without insulting or embarrassing, sometimes it will happen no matter what you say/do.

I would rather smooth things over with the person I refused to shake hands with than explain to Hashem why I shook so many hands. I am not saying anything about anyone who does. this is my own personal belief.

I am not embarrassed to be a yid, and just like I don't expect a person of another religion to sit down at my Shabbos meal and wash, bentsch, etc, nor do I compromise myself and my beliefs in their presence.

and as I said previously, B"H, it has always been very smooth or only slightly awkward for a few minutes. there are plenty of ways to convey professionalism and warmth without shaking hands. besides, where does it stop--will you also refuse a clap on the shoulder, a hug, etc? I worked for many years in the professional world, and I also observed my parents in their workplaces and it isn't just shaking hands in even the most professional places.

Yes, if people want to be offended...they will be...no need to cater to this whim...

when I first became frum, much to the chagrin of my brothers, I was with them and a black man one of my brothers worked with came up to us. He extended his hand and I explained that because of my religion, I don't shake hands with men. He seemed to accept it fine.

But in the car, during the entire hour drive home, my brother lectured me about how humiliating it was and how now he thinks our family is racist because I wouldn't shake hands with a black man Rolling Eyes

That just strengthened my resolve to be shomer negiah more strictly...because people will see things the way THEY want to sometimes, no matter how nice one is..

Clarissa

Mon, Apr 14 2008, 11:41 pm

When I was first aware of this, I once momentarily forgot and kissed a friend of my husband's hello when I saw him on a special occasion. He got a bit nervous and turned slightly, and I wound up kissing him on the ear. It was even more embarrassing than the cheek kiss would have been. This is a shy guy to begin with. I'm sure he didn't expect his friend's hussy wife to make a pass.

(insert blushy emoticon here)

amother

Mon, Apr 14 2008, 11:45 pm

I agree with not shaking hands and I do briefly apologize and say I don't shake. Sometimes I will say it's for religious reasons. But two fine points I think we all need to be careful of:

1. Mentioning "touching only one's husband" might not be that tznius to say, because it puts sort of an intimate context to the whole thing.

2. Sometimes we overcompensate and act too smiley and friendly afterwards, to prove that we're normal and nice, and no offense was meant, etc. But being so casual and friendly (overly so) isn't a tznius way to act with a man you're not married to.

Anyone agree? Especially with #2, I find that I have to be particularly careful to strike the proper balance.

leomom

Mon, Apr 14 2008, 11:51 pm

amother wrote:

2. Sometimes we overcompensate and act too smiley and friendly afterwards, to prove that we're normal and nice, and no offense was meant, etc. But being so casual and friendly (overly so) isn't a tznius way to act with a man you're not married to.

I agree. I sometimes feel like I'm flirting with all that smiling, which is the last thing I want to do! I just worry that it comes across that way. I try to aim for "polite and cordial" but then I sometimes feel like I'm coming across as cold and rejecting. And then I worry that it's a chillul Hashem, because the other person will walk away thinking, "Boy, those religious women sure are unfriendly!"

lamplighter

Tue, Apr 15 2008, 12:23 am

I try and say something, sometimes they shake my hand b4 I get a chance Confused

just a story I was told when I askd a shliach about this.
once he was at thsi memorial thing for someone in his community. I t was a very moving event, with a whole candle lighting ceremony at the. after the candle lighting they asked everyone to hold hands and join in a prayer. he was so anxious bc it was silent, how would explain himeslf outa this etc, he couldnt just do it bc e/o there knows his religious standings etc. on his right side was a man whom he held hands with and as he turned to his left he saw a woman standing there with a missing arm who was nodding in apology to the shliach. he whispered "its ok"...and boy did he mean it!
Sometimes hashem just pulls through for us....

Mom2girls

Tue, Apr 15 2008, 5:00 am

Sunshine - I think your cousin was teacher! Well anyway we had heard that story and when we were getting out to "meet the world" and join the workforce she gave us a speech of what to do and all and since then I explain when having to shake hands and all the people I met were very understanding.
Also in America I beleive the population is more aware of the jewish people's needs and beliefs whereas in Europe where I now live it's more of a new concept especially since there is antisemitism but I haven't had a person that reacted bad.
And the best part is that my coworker told me after the first time she heard me explain to a business partner , she was so relieved bec she didn't know what to do - too embarassed to explain - as I told you problem more here in europe...but we're getting there - I find people only admire you if you stand by what you believe in

mimivan

Tue, Apr 15 2008, 5:37 am

Anyone hear of the story of Jason Bedrick?

He's a State Rep in Mass..

Anyway, he was running for office...a frum guy, and he didn't shake hands with women. There was a group of women in Boston (a small club) that went out against him for not shaking hands with women (they thought it was misogynistic).

He came to one of their meetings and explained why he was shomer negiah and how it was actually respectful to women. He won them over.

He won his seat by...you guessed it...only six votes!!! (six women in the club!)

Ruchel

Tue, Apr 15 2008, 8:26 am

amother wrote:

bandcm wrote:

Note - I do not say, Im religious so I dont shake hands, I say Im Jewish. All Jewish have to keep Torah and mitzvos, not just those who call themselves religious.

Not all Jews, or even all religious Jews, believe that we're not allowed to shake hands. Some of us do shake hands. So I don't understand this.

true

I would never say that because I feel it reflects badly on those who shake hands and are allowed to.

It can also make you look pretty weird if the person knows other (non frum) Jews and they all shake...