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Forum
-> Household Management
-> Kosher Kitchen
Motek
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 Wed, Nov 10 2004, 9:50 am
In the December 2001 issue of Kashrus magazine (which I highly recommended), there is an article by Rabbi E. Israelewitz about bishul akum (non-Jewish cooking), which is forbidden to Jews.
He describes two incidents which took place in a hotel under the OK hashgacha many years ago, in which gentile workers disobeyed the kashrus rules. He was a member of the staff of mashgichim.
When R' Berel Levy a'h came to the hotel on chol ha'moed, they had a meeting in which he brought up these two problems. R' Levy said the following :
"You're making a mistake in the whole area of non-Jewish workers. In the last few decades [remember, R' Levy passed away in the early '80's], non-Jews have changed immensely in their attitudes. Besides the fact that their whole way of life is totally alien to the concept of restrictive dietary laws, they have totally lost their respect for anything religious. Gone are the days when dietary laws evoked a feeling of awe in non-Jews. Now it's just considered an ancient relic to be held up to ridicule.
"In addition, they have no real fear any more. They know they are being paid low wages; they resent it, and they are envious. They know that if they get fired from this job, they'll find another one waiting for them if they are still willing to work for this low pay.
"Therefore, unless you are dealing with highly paid professional non-Jews who take extreme pride in being meticulous in their work, you have nothing to rely on. You must be on constant guard, and if you walk away, even for a moment, you are asking for trouble.
"I guarantee you, that any baale busta who leaves her non-Jewish worker in the kitchen alone, while she runs out to bring her kids to school, shop at the grocery, or go to do the laundry in the basement, HAS HAD HER KITCHEN COMPLETELY TREIFED UP A HUNDRED TIMES OVER."
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Tefila
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Wed, Nov 10 2004, 1:09 pm
| Quote: | | "I guarantee you, that any baale busta who leaves her non-Jewish worker in the kitchen alone, while she runs out to bring her kids to school, shop at the grocery, or go to do the laundry in the basement, HAS HAD HER KITCHEN COMPLETELY TREIFED UP A HUNDRED TIMES OVER." |
yea I believe it 
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zuncompany
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Wed, Nov 10 2004, 1:33 pm
I believe it. I keep a close on on my cleaning lady. She is not allowed in the kitchen at all. My husband is very insistant on this. The one time she went in (I had to go to the bathroom) she triefed my sink. I screamed so loud. Even if I let her near my kitchen ever I think she would be to scared now.
Sara
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Tefila
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Wed, Nov 10 2004, 2:44 pm
| Quote: | | She is not allowed in the kitchen at all. |
just like we wouldnt give over our mitzvah of Hadlokas neiros - lighting shabbos candles or Taharas Hamishpocho then we also should be protective of our kosher kitchen.
They are our mitzvahs and ultimatley we will be held responsible
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Motek
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Wed, Nov 10 2004, 6:09 pm
certainly can't go wrong if you don't let them in the kitchen, but I don't think there's anything wrong with supervising a cleaning lady in your kitchen
before Pesach she scrubs the kitchen walls and the stove and cabinets
I'm right there, enjoying her doing the scrubbing for me!
if you read books that describe life in Europe before the war, you'll read descriptions of gentile maids who helped in the kitchen. Naturally, the lady of the house was right there, working along with her.
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zuncompany
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Wed, Nov 10 2004, 6:25 pm
See Motek, when my cleaning lady is here I take the time to do a special activity with the boys cause I don't have to clean. Its my day off. Easier just to scrub it myself during nap time another day.
Pesach is another story. She does help me than. But like you said, I am right there cleaning besides her.
Sara
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amother
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Wed, Nov 10 2004, 10:00 pm
my house is so small that from wherever I am I can see the kitchen or at least hear what she's doing. I check in on her. and she follows what I tell her to do. I've never had a problem. she knows to keep milk and meat on the seperate sides, and what else is there?
what could really happen?
Yael
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Tefila
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Wed, Nov 10 2004, 10:20 pm
Motek
| Quote: | | I guarantee you, that any baale busta who leaves her non-Jewish worker in the kitchen alone |
and
| Quote: | | but I don't think there's anything wrong with supervising a cleaning lady in your kitchen |
Sure if you are supervising her I was responding to your first post when one is not !
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Pickle Lady
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Sat, Nov 13 2004, 9:22 pm
Since we don't have much money I really don't worry about this too much, I have a cleaning lady but I do supervise. I learned my lesson already. Last year I went to Johannasburg South Africa where most of the Jews have live in maids. So did my inlaws, I can just tell you it was a nightmare (for me) and couldn't wait come home to my own kitchen. I do know that supposedly most of the families there train their maids not do do cooking without and existing flame and so on.
Also my husband is a mashgiach in a chinese restaurant for the OK. The restaurant is owned and operated by chinese people and my husband is the only jew at the restaurant. He has to watch those cook like a hawk. He tell me crazy stories about what they sometimes do. Also the cooks don't speak english which is hard for my husband too.
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Tefila
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Sat, Nov 13 2004, 9:28 pm
shayna rochel
| Quote: | | Since we don't have much money |
Join the club 
| Quote: | | He tell me crazy stories about what they sometimes do. |
In our case my father told me more than I cared to hear. And resteraunts can be a big prob especially!
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Rochel Leah
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Sat, Nov 13 2004, 9:34 pm
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shayna rochel, as you know I am south african... it is a tricky business with the maid situation...in my house, my father wouldnt let the maids do any cooking..they could cut up vegtables, or the chickens etc...but otherwise everything else was done by my mother , me or my sister. but I had alot of friends who have maids that cooked evrything for them..
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sarahd
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Tue, Nov 16 2004, 5:26 pm
[quote="I had alot of friends who have maids that cooked evrything for them..[/quote]
That would scare me. My husband tutored a boy whose family had a trusted live-in maid for around 15-20 years. One day she came to him waving an open bottle of wine to ask him if he could add it to the food, since she knows she's not allowed to...Who knows what else she's done over the years? After that, my husband became adamant about not eating in this boy's house, which certainly led to uncomfortable situations. Personally, I think he should have told this boy's parents why he won't eat in their house.
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Rivka
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Thu, Nov 18 2004, 7:09 pm
Hey, I am poor so I don't have a cleaner, don't really need one either.
Forget about cleaners treifing things up, you don't need them to do it, kids do it and so do husbands.
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sarahd
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Thu, Nov 18 2004, 7:34 pm
| Rivka wrote: | Hey, I am poor so I don't have a cleaner, don't really need one either.
Forget about cleaners treifing things up, you don't need them to do it, kids do it and so do husbands. |
But at least they'll let you know if they did. A maid might well be scared to do so, or she might not take the problem so seriously.
An anecdote: Soon after we moved from Crown Heights, my sister invited her friend from there for Shabbos. The girl's mother called and asked if my mother minded if she sent Lubavitcher meat along with her. My mother said, not necessary; she could also buy Lubavitch meat for one Shabbos. When preparing the cholent, my mother wanted to put in some gravy but then realized that it had been made with non-Lubav meat. At first she decided not to put it in, but then thought to herself, big deal my meat is also kosher. Suddenly she realized what she was doing and then she told us - see, this is why a [gentile] has no ne'emonus when it comes to kashrus. If I, a frum Jewish woman, don't viscerally understand the importance of someone keeping their own chumros, how can you expect a non-Jewish worker to do so?
Food (ha) for thought.
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Motek
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Sun, Jan 23 2005, 10:37 am
Rabbi Gershon Bess, rav in LA, says he was checking out the kashrus of a hotel that advertised a mashgiach tmidi (that they have constant supervision by a mashgiach). When he called the hotel and asked to speak to the mashgiach, he was told that the mashgiach was only there on Tuesdays!
When he tried again on Tuesday, he was told, sorry, he's only here from 11-1!
when he finally reached this so-called mashgiach tmidi and asked about the kashrus of the meat, he was told it was glatt kosher (of course). When he asked who provided the kashrus certification, he was told, "I don't know but I'll check the label and let you know."
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miriam
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Sun, Jan 23 2005, 11:46 am
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My husband did some fill in work for a mashgiach. After his experiences (I will try to tell you later, but busy now), we don't eat out anymore. Not at weddings, only if the food was actually prepared at the shul.
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sarahd
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Sun, Jan 23 2005, 12:04 pm
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From what I have heard, most people who have worked in the hashgacha field won't eat out of the home....makes you wonder why anyone would.
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miriam
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Sun, Jan 23 2005, 4:00 pm
Okay here are some of his experiences. They don't wash the veggies. The cook opened up a package of mushrooms and cut them.
Food was prepared for a chasanah at a non cholov yisroel kitchen.
Apparently there is a older people hechsher. In institutions they are not as strict and the patients know this before coming to the nursing home. I guess it's for more conservative Jews. (my assumption).
We are vegetarian and at the last chasana I went to was served mushroom soup. I asked if what it was and if it was vegetarian. She told me it was. A few moments and sips later, another waitress came over to tell me that it was a meat base. This is not a hechsher problem but it's bothered us. I am really disappointed about not be able to eat out at weddings. I like (free) food cooked by someone other than me. We also don't go out to eat but that is more for health reasons. Who knows what they put int he food????
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Motek
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Sun, Jan 23 2005, 5:02 pm
| Quote: | | The cook opened up a package of mushrooms and cut them. |
instead of?
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