HELP! I'm at the end of my tether!

amother

Sun, May 04 2008, 6:43 am

My teenage daughter (13) was "expelled" (for want of a better word!) from school today.

She's in 7th grade of a Bnei Akiva Ulpana and refuses to conform or show respect for her elders.

She wears makeup to school; rolls her skirts up so that they are shorter; rolls her sleeves up so that they are shorter; walks out of class when she feels like it; refuses to mix with the girls in her class; and shows a basic lack of respect for her teachers and fellow pupils.

DH and I have just returned from another meeting with the Rav and the teaching staff and they have told us that she is not in the right place and we should take her away.

She has caused other kids to get into trouble and we discovered during the meeting that there was a incident last week when she and two friends sat on a bench directly in front of where two workmen were painting at the school - they proceeded to chat to the men and were caught exchanging giggles and were even offered ice cream by the men! My daughter said that she wasn't involved - it was already going on when she joined them but I don't think I believe her.

She has told us many times that she doesn't want to be religious and she can't wait to move away from home to lead her own life.

I feel such a failure as a parent and have no idea what to do with her now or where to send her to school. The school she wants to go to is a State religious high school but the word "religious" in the title is questionable. There are eight classes of 40 kids in the year and only two of the classes are "torani". The only dress code of note is that the girls have to wear skirts!

Has anyone been through this?
What do you suggest?
Please help!

Tamiri

Sun, May 04 2008, 7:42 am

I have no daughters and have not had your experience. Others can probably give better advice on "what to do".

But, the most important thing is to tell your DD every day how much you love here. Give her a hug, a pat, a smile. Let her know that she is YOURS, no matter what. You love her, you cherish her, you are glad to have her and you are there for her. Her spiritual beliefs are hers alone and as long as she respects yours in your home, leave her alone. Some people take longer to come to a spiritual recognition. Help her on her way by making it as easy as possible, not by forcing.

What she chooses to do/not do is not always a direct result of your parenting. If you think you did a good job with bringing her up, keep that at the back of your mind. Tell yourself you did your best, through thick and thin, and you will get through this too.

Good luck!

freidasima

Sun, May 04 2008, 8:12 am

Been there done that amother...not to the point where middle dd didn't want to be frum, but certainly she didn't and doesn't want to be my kind of frum...she didn't make trouble but she didn't have friends, had a very hard time in school and it was a real problem. The only issue was that we didnt have a choice in schools, she was in an ulpena where she slept at home so that wasn't bad, but at the time there was nothing else left in the area.

All my secular friends were pushing me to send her to the local secular high school which is a country-known famous and good school for top notch kids. It wasn't even a possibility for dh and me. We were adamant to her that she stay in her school and whatever she wants to do afterwards she can do. She is in her mid 20s today and if there is one thing we are happy about, and that she is happy about, it's that we kept her in frum schools.

Advice? First sit down and talk to her and find out what she doesn't like about religion. She isn't a baby, is it because of "taivah"? That she wants to be able to wear pants, go out with boys, wear makeup, read secular lit, go to the movies and whatever? Or is it because she doesn't believe in the Ribono shel olam? If it is the latter, you are in gehokte zurris. You can try to talk to her and use the line that yiddishkeit isn't about Hashem, it is about Yidden, meaning it is about community. There are (unfortunately) not a small number of yiddien who live a so called religious life (you will understand the so called in a minute) who don't believe in Hashem. But they believe in yidden, they believe that without the community they won't have much...and so they don't wash or bench except on shabbos, they don't make brochos, if they are guys so they put on tfilin in the morning (if they have kids, otherwise sometimes not even that), but they keep shabbos, eat kosher, and I don't ask about TH. Know lots like that. But they are still in the "religious" framework, have a community and belong to a group. Because in EY if you leave that group you have to join another one and someone from a religious background won't find it easy to join. The other group isn't some nice wholesome group where it's like the frum they just dress differently, don't keep shabbos or kashrus or whatever, it's a totally utterly different lifestyle among the high school kids today...don't know if your daughter is into messing around with guys at 12-13 I don't mean sleeping with them but messing around stuff...

If she belongs to the "taivah" group, that she wants more freedom, that's a heck of a lot easier. Send her to the other school. Let her stay within a so called religious framework rather than leave totally...she will make her own derekh...

And you are permitted to draw red lines. To say that as long as she lives in the house she has to be a, b, and c. That can be dress codes, that can be not being mechalel whatever, that can be whatever you want. But choose your red lines very very carefully...

mumoo

Sun, May 04 2008, 8:17 am

tamiri is right. love her, love her, love her.
you know you do, make sure she knows. Focus on what she does right- there must be some things. we as parents take behaviors personally and get defensive and angry at children who are struggling with acceptance. Every human needs to feel accepted for who they are. Don't give her a reason to look for this acceptance outside your home

Relationships are of primary importance for people; relationship with Hashem, children with parents, husbands with wives. If there is a perceived lack in a child's mind regarding her relationship to her parents (whether such a lack exists is irrelevant) she will feel a "whole" in her heart.

Then she engages in an activity that gives her pleasure to try to fill that hole. It can be listening to secular music or wearing a questionable item of clothing. This make her feel a kind of pleasure.

The first reaction of most parents is anger- furthering the "whole" in her heart which in turn makes her need these pleasurable activities more. Its a spiral that takes mere months to undo a child- and sometimes years to reverse.

Look at the big picture and assume she will eventually grow up and mature. When she starts her own family will she want to duplicate the warmth and love she experienced in your home (as most children do) including the Yiddishkeit- or will her childhood home be a memory of stress, anger and unacceptance that she will turn away from -including the Yiddishkeit.

I do have teenagers, 3- and while I don't approve wholeheartedly with the choices of 2 of them, I believe we have an exceptionally close relationship and am confident that this will be what holds all of us together.

I assume this didn't start yesterday. It may take a long time to see results of your changed behavior. But as the grown-up here you have no choice but to make changes.

Please don't feel any embarrassment where she is concerned- as far as being with her in public, what school she attends, her friends. At this point what the neighbors think is totally irrelevant compared to what your daughter thinks.

JewishMother18

Sun, May 04 2008, 8:59 am

I am not going to continue being anonymous. I thank you all for your heartfelt replies -

Quote:

But, the most important thing is to tell your DD every day how much you love here. Give her a hug, a pat, a smile. Let her know that she is YOURS, no matter what. You love her, you cherish her, you are glad to have her and you are there for her. Her spiritual beliefs are hers alone and as long as she respects yours in your home, leave her alone. Some people take longer to come to a spiritual recognition. Help her on her way by making it as easy as possible, not by forcing.

I'm having a really really hard time with this one Tamiri. I have so much anger inside me at the moment. I was also a rebel so I can kind of understand what she's going through although I didn't take it as far as she is doing. We did sit down with her the other evening and after a lot of screaming and crying on my part I took her in my arms and told her that we love her and want only what's best for her but it seems to have gone in one ear and out the other because within half an hour she was dissing us again!

freidasima, your post really speaks to me. We kind of have the same situation - there's really nothing left in the area and I don't want to send her to the "religious" secular school. She still comes home every night and I know that one of her concerns is about sleeping there which she must do in 9th grade.

We've had the religious discussion and I know that it's not B"H that she doesn't have any belief, she doesn't like the restrictions. It's hard for us because we both grew up in non-dati homes and although we were once a lot more outwardly religious than we are today, we have "relaxed" a little since moving to the area we currently live in. She is mixing with boys and I caught her kissing them goodnight a couple of weeks ago - in the same way she kisses her girlfriends goodnight, but nevertheless a kiss.

Mumoo, I have the feeling that our relationship is way past repair I'm sad to say and the way I feel right now is that I don't want to repair it. It's a terrible thing to say but I feel so hurt and angry. We've spent so much money on her education. I had a very difficult pregnancy with her and almost lost both my life and hers. She was one of twins and we had already lost her twin before I got sick. We had to make major decisions in the middle of the pregnancy.

I know a psychologist would have a field day with me here!!!

Tamiri

Sun, May 04 2008, 10:27 am

It's never beyond repair. Everyone, I think, deals with kid issues. You have a heavier load because of what you personally have been through. I am not a therapist and I don't know if you want to go to one. But let's say that even if you don't FEEL like it, tell her every day how wonderful she is. It's not her fault that you come with religious baggage. Just as you found your way, so will she. She's past Bat Mitzva, you did your best and now it's time to let loose a bit.
Several things: when it comes to boys, I would sit her down and talk to her. Be open. I know that the kids today kiss and hug and blah blah blah (though I am "lenient" compared to some, we never touched boys back in the day and even today don't really shake or anything). It's ichy but it gives them a sense of freedom. Discuss it with her. It does not mean she's making out or giving her body. Try and think how you would feel to be suddenly "free" to be touching and doing all things forbidden. You mentioned you had been there.
You won't have an instant rapport with her, as there is a lot of hurt. But if you keep trying, you may work your way back into her heart. She needs to know that you are there for her, to listen and not to judge.
Very surprising things happen to young people over the years. Try and keep the lines of communication open, so she knows there is a safe place called HOME.
You, mom, are not a failure. You did nothing wrong. You did and should continue to do the best you can, without being angry. Let it go. It's your child and she's a 13 year old... that is really very close to still being a baby. Her hormones just don't know it.
From my grand old age, I can put certain things into perspective:
Infancy lasts maybe 6 months
Babyhood lasts mabye 1.5 year
Toddlerhood lasts maybe 2 years
Childhood years last about 8 years
Teen years last about 6 years
The rest of your life, from 18 (which I consider mostly adult) to 120 is 102 years!!!!
She will likely be out of your home for far far far many more years, than in your home. Enjoy her while you still have her! Make these few years count.
And no, I don't take my own advice all the time embarrassed

Imaonwheels

Sun, May 04 2008, 11:42 am

You know that not all ulpanot are the same. Some are more strict and some more lenient. Some are very good at working with borderline kids and bringing them back. I know that Kiryat Arba takes a few difficult girls every year to raise them up. I know another one that is one step short of juvy.When my dd got herself booted out we found Bet Shulamit to be a lifesaver. She was on a fast track to trouble and totally turned around. Rav Nevantzal is their rav. But it was the teachers and guidance counselor who really invested in her. I had one son who also wanted yeshiva tichonit and after visiting 100! schools we found out that the general attitude of the Bnai Akiva system was to hold them basically where they were when they came in. When we asked both in yeshivot and ulpanot about chinuch to yirat shamayim they looked at us as if we fell from the moon. In the end we kept ds home and moved dd to Bet Shulamit. Both were the right decision. Today they are married and every day move closer to the type of yiddishkeit they were raised in.

We used to have an ulpana in Yitzhar for girls booted out everywhere. We helped them to change gears, do something constructive and build a Jewish home. It was made part of Kedumim, most of the best staff were canned and it went down hill. We have girls from that ulpana who were considered hopeless who married in the yeshiva in Yitzhar and live here. And this is a very Torani yishuv.

Tamiri

Sun, May 04 2008, 11:58 am

Jewish Mother wrote:

IMumoo, I have the feeling that our relationship is way past repair I'm sad to say and the way I feel right now is that I don't want to repair it. It's a terrible thing to say but I feel so hurt and angry. We've spent so much money on her education. I had a very difficult pregnancy with her and almost lost both my life and hers. She was one of twins and we had already lost her twin before I got sick. We had to make major decisions in the middle of the pregnancy.

Please, read what you wrote. What are you hurt from? That you spent so much on her education? Did she ask for it? Maybe you should be upset at the institution that you paid so much money to? There is a saying "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink" (or something like that). You did what you thought you should, but you can't force her, or make her feel bad, if she didn't take to "the water". It's also not her fault about your pregnancy. Even though we have a tzivui of Kibbud Av vaEm, realistically a kid who is not thankful to their parents for being born will tell you as much and will have no interest in how hard it was to get her here. Think of everything from her side. There is a time to "be right" and a time to let go and try to mend. Or at least not make things worse. She's very, very young.

freidasima

Sun, May 04 2008, 12:47 pm

I don't think that today 13 is "very very young". Nine is "very very young" thirteen is old enough to be thinking ahead.

What you describe is solvable, very solvable. You have the alternative of a dati school although it is loosely describe as you say as Dati. If she still believes you have a good chance of keeping her there. She doesn't want the restrictions? Which restrictions? Does she know herself? She wants to wear pants? Will the world come to an end if she does? She wants to hang around with boys? There is a difference between a girl giving a peck to a boy and a boy giving a peck to a girl. Why? Because it is nothing for a 13 year old in terms of libido but a heck of a lot for a guy. Maybe it's time for a really deep talk about not the birds and the bees but the libido and the trouble one can get into. A real chiloni 1960s type of discussion, not a frum one. One that has nothing to do with frumkiet or to quote my grandmother to my mother around 1945 "do whatever the heck you think is right but if you come home to me pregnant you aren't my daughter and I close my door in your face"...frumkeit was never mentioned, but the scare was enough to keep one on the straight and narrow. 13 too young for that? After getting your period it is never too young for that.

I don't believe in sending kids away from home to sleep at school. Period. Not for girls and not for boys. If they are sharing a room with 6 other kids at home and at pnimiya they can be 3 in a room it's a different story. All of a sudden they might even get a nighttable instead of just half a mattress on the floor. But that isn't your situation.

Why in the world should a parent let a kid sleep full time away from home, what? They don't have a bed? They don't have a home? I like to keep a good eye on what is going on every day. When they are in pniminya you can't know what is going on every day. Don't like that. Don't like other people being responsible for my kids. I'm responsible for my kids. Not a dorm counselor, not a rov, not a rebbetzin.

Think what your red lines are. Ask her if she could write her own ticket what she would want, and why. Listen. And then see what is applicable. Could be that she has fears that she doesn't want to show. The business of kissing boys goodbye, did she learn that from her ulpana friends? Who are her friends? Is she hanging around with the "bad girls"? Is she copying them? All questions that if she isn't at home you won't know...ask.

JewishMother18

Mon, May 05 2008, 10:36 pm

Thanks again ladies for all your wonderful support and advice.

Yesterday she seemed to have had a good day and settled down a bit - this could be temporary of course as we've seen this before!

She's been allowed to see out the school year at the school. She did go to the menahelet and asked if she could stay and what she would need to do to stay. She was told that at this precise moment there is nothing she can do and they have made their decision but they did say that they would look at the situation again when they see what happens over the next few weeks - talk about mixed messages!!!

She came home from school and went straight to her room and studied for a test and did homework! She didn't go anywhere near her computer (and that was without being told "no computer"). We did talk a bit and I did tell her that she would have to make some serious changes if she wanted to convince them to keep her there.

At the moment none of the other schools have any places for her so she has some serious work to do over the next few weeks - we'll see what happens.