Frum Office - Not-frum Office - not-Jewish office

Motek

Sun, May 18 2008, 3:10 pm

Which situation do you think presents the most pitfalls (halachically speaking) for a frum woman to work in with men:

a frum office or store, I.e. working with frum men

a Jewish but not frum office or store, I.e. Jewish men

a non-Jewish office or store, I.e. non-Jewish men

flowerpower

Sun, May 18 2008, 3:18 pm

I think the second one. The non frum men do not know that halochos and when you will try to explain why you cannot do this or that then they can get angry. If they do know it and you tell them that you keep this and this then they will mock you or...since they dont keep it and don't hold from it.

The frum men will understand and try to make it easiest possible.

The non jewish men don't know most of what you hold and respect your religion(if they took you in to work for em in first place then they arent against your religion)

NotInNJMommy

Sun, May 18 2008, 3:28 pm

Yes, I have the hardest time interacting with non-frum Jewish men.

The frum Jewish men know the halahchas (in general) and how to behave,e tc.

The non Jews don't know the halachas, but as soon as I say "it's a religious thing" they are really respectful and supporting of whatever it is...

The non frum Jews, well, it's hard to explain to them things bc then they get defensive...like "oh, we have a "kosher" kitchen"....they make pretenses to kosher but there's no way that kitchen is kosher....(I can think of at one Jewish office, that isn't frum), so I'd never eat out of that, and then they'd get offended.

In the kitchen

Mon, May 19 2008, 8:08 am

I have also worked in all three scenarios...I was first going to respond #3 simply because that was where I was most uncomfortable...but after hearing other's responses I do suppose #2 is more stressful. My problem with #3 is that being around non jews we get influenced negatively (IMHO) if we spend too much time around them and we might not even notice...

However, for some people this situation could work oppositely and strengthen their yiddishkeit all the more...

mom13

Mon, May 19 2008, 9:06 am

I think #1. alot of FRUM men, might not touch - shake hands, but they can still be way too friendly. and its much worse, cuz both men and women know it wrong, like all eating lunch together and shmoozing.... its really wrong. and its harder for us, the women that dont want to shmooze, cuz then the men feel like we think we are greater than them and they are doing something bad (which they are).
understand what I mean?

In the kitchen

Mon, May 19 2008, 9:26 am

This really depends on the ppl. I am in situation #1 right now, and everyone here is very respectful...the men stay to themselves unless they need me to do something (Im the secretary) but they never talk casually with me, not even 'how are you?' So I dont really feel uncomfortable at all B"H.

Fox

Mon, May 19 2008, 9:33 am

As others have written, a lot depends on the individual woman and the circumstances. I've also experienced all three situations, and each had different challenges.

On one hand, non-Jewish or non-frum co-workers obviously aren't knowledgeable about what we consider appropriate conversation, let alone various halachos.

On the other hand, having worked in various mosdos over the years, Ive seen lots of evidence that men and women working together in "kosher" environments isn't a panacea.

The biggest problem, IMHO, is the "best foot forward" problem: when a husband leaves his home in the morning, it's likely to be a bit chaotic. Kids are flying everywhere, breakfast is being forced upon the recalcitrant, and his wife is likely wearing a less-than-glamorous housedress. When he enters the office an hour or so later, the women are wearing shaitels, perhaps a bit of makeup, and are dressed professionally.

We know that those same women were probably forcing kids out the door while wearing housedresses an hour earlier, but most men don't analyze what they see that deeply. They only notice that their wives and homes seem disorganized, while the lovely ladies at the office have everything under control. And while they honestly don't intend to compare their wives with the office staff, it's almost impossible for a bit of comparison not to creep in. Not exactly great for the ol' Shalom Bayis!

freidasima

Thu, May 22 2008, 12:30 am

Depends on the individuals involved. I've never worked in a non jewish office as I work in EY, but in my work have come across people in my profession, non Jews, both abroad and here in EY...each group you mention can be understanding, each group can be problematic.

The only real problems I have encountered are with ANTI-religious people, both men and women, and mostly they are anti-reliigous yidden! With the non jews I rarely had trouble.

ora_43

Thu, May 22 2008, 1:19 am

I had a LOT of problems working in non-Jewish offices in the states. I was living in an area with few Jews and fewer frum ones, and I just couldn't manage to make my bosses understand that things like Shabbat are required, not just recommended. I would say, "I'm sorry, but I can't work on Saturday for religious reasons. I would be happy to make up the hours on Sunday," and they would say, "Right, but this is really important, I really need you to do it Saturday. Next Saturday you can have completely off."

Working with frum people has been great.