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-> Yom Tov / Holidays
-> Shavuos
suomynona
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 Thu, May 22 2008, 1:23 pm
Did you see the Bartenura inside? My husband thinks there's no such Bartenura.
He also said that the Divrei Nechemya says that the Ba'al Hatanya was wrong about this.
It was only a printing mistake that came out later.
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Mama Bear
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Thu, May 22 2008, 5:19 pm
| GetReal wrote: | | Mama Bear wrote: | My husband went to Meron when we were married almost four years. a month later we had our first pregnancy. (We miscarried but it was still amazing that we got pregnant).
four years later he went back to Meron and promised hte name Shimon. 18 months later we kept our promise!!!! |
Mama Bear, that is so inspiring. Thank you so much for sharing.
May the zchus of this great tzadik bring brochos on all of us, and may you have many more healthy children! | amein. thanks!
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Motek
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Thu, May 22 2008, 7:07 pm
| suomynona wrote: | | Did you see the Bartenura inside? My husband thinks there's no such Bartenura. |
I have since been told that it doesn't exist. My question still stands, any source from 500 years ago that says otherwise?
| Quote: | | He also said that the Divrei Nechemya says that the Ba'al Hatanya was wrong about this. |
Huh?  He says what I quoted above, that Lag B'Omer is well known as Rashbi's yarzeit. It's right there in his teshuva!
People did not decide to observe Lag B'Omer as Rashbi's yartzeit because of what it did or didn't say in a book!
| Quote: | In Pri Eitz Chaim it says that R' Avrohom Ha'Levi used to recite the Nachem prayer (said on Tisha B'Av) every day because he grieved very much over the churban of the Beis HaMikdash and yearned for its rebuilding. When he said that tefilla also on Lag B'Omer in Meron, Rashbi was annoyed and R' Avrohom Ha'Levi came to harm.
This incident is explained in context of a saying attributed to the Alter Rebbe (Baal Ha'Tanya) that there are sublime souls of a select few individuals for whom the whole aspect of churban was not actual, I.e. as if it did not occur. One of these is Rashbi.
R' Avrohom Ha'Levi was a talmid of the Arizal. No doubt he knew of the significance of histalkus (passing on), that it marks the completion of one's avoda, and he also knew of the significance of Rashbi. As such, he should not have sensed the churban on Lag B'Omer, the day which compounded all the accomplishments of Rashbi and was even enhanced by the additional light transcending these.
(from a Lag B'Omer talk of the Lubavitcher Rebbe) |
I will say again, if over the centuries, Jews observe Lag B'Omer as the Yom Hilula of Rashbi, as his yartzeit, I find it very troubling to tamper with this. Oops everybody, it's just a printing mistake and you've got the wrong day. Sounds off. By Divine Providence, this is the day that is observed as the yartzeit. I would be very wary of messing with Rashbi (see story above).
Do you see any purpose in celebrating on Lag B'Omer in connection with Rashbi, singing "Bar Yochai" etc., lighting bonfires? If so, what?
When do you observe Rashbi's hilula?
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TzenaRena
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Thu, May 22 2008, 9:48 pm
to me it seems like an attempt to downplay the centrality of Pnimiyus HaTorah, as taught by RaSHBI. 
or maybe some people just like to create contradictions so they can make up a pilpul, or "chiddush".
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suomynona
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Fri, May 23 2008, 5:02 am
| Quote: | Clarification of sources of lag b'omer not being the yarzeit of Rashbi:
- there are many accounts of travels of rishonim who visited e"y and visited the kevorim of rashbi and Hillel & Shamai. It was mentioned that some of them davened at the kvorim of Hillel & Shamai & miracles happened. Only later on, in the time of the mekubalim of tzfas do we find more frequent mention of people davening & learning at the kever of Rashbi. Another kever mentioned many times is Shmuel Hanavi on 28 Iyar, his Yarzeit, mentioned in the 3 letters of the Bartenura. There's no mention of him going to Rashbi. It's possible that there are other letters, but we don't have them.
- There's a letter of a Talmid of the Bartenura who travelled with him who mentions they went to the Kever of Rashbi, but there's no mention of any date.
- There's a sefer printed over 200 years ago which does claim that the Bartenura says that he went to the kever of Rashbi on lag b'omer, but we don't know where he got this from.
- As to using the Arizal as a source for the yarzeit, there are many versions of his teachings recorded by many different talmidim. We still don't know which is the most reliable although mekubalim today have made great progress in this. R' Chaim Vital is considered to have the most weight. That being said, in most of the accounts of talmidim of the Arizal, lag b'omer isn't mentioned as the day of Rashbi's death. Of course it's mentioned in these writings that there's a connected between Rashbi and lag b'omer, but not that it's his yarzeit. These accounts include Shaar Hakavanos, Nagid Mitzva, and other works.
- In Pri Eitz Chaim, printed in 1765 and in 1782, based on manuscripts of the writings of the Arizal, there was an indication that there might be a connection between Rashbi's death & lag b'omer. Thus, the Chida and others said in their writings that lag b'omer is his yarzeit. But in a work which Chida printed right before his death, he confirmed that this edition of the Pri Eitz Chaim had a printing mistake & there's no connection between Rashbi's death and lag b'omer. The expertise of the chida in Kabbala and the writings of the Arizal is well known. Many other gedolim, including the Kaf hachaim agreed with him on this.
- Today we have almost all the manuscripts of the talmidim of the Arizal, many of which are housed in Ahavat Shalom, an ultra orthodox organization in Y-m, headed by one of the greatest frum, mainstream experts in Kaballa today, R' Yaakov Hillel. He confirms all of the above information in many of his writings - That based on strong manuscript evidence, this version of the Pri Eitz Chaim has a printing mistake connecting lag b'omer to Rashbi's yarzeit. (See "Ad Hagal Hazeh", by R' Yaakov Hillel, available in all seforim stores)
- R' Yaakov Hillel says that the mistake came as a result of the sefer Chemdas Yomim, printed in 1731.
- He offers many connections between Rashbi and lag b'omer, but NOT his yarzeit |
p.s. you were right about the Divrei Nechemya
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shalhevet
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Fri, May 23 2008, 5:39 am
| TzenaRena wrote: | to me it seems like an attempt to downplay the centrality of Pnimiyus HaTorah, as taught by RaSHBI.
or maybe some people just like to create contradictions so they can make up a pilpul, or "chiddush". |
and
| Motek wrote: | I will say again, if over the centuries, Jews observe Lag B'Omer as the Yom Hilula of Rashbi, as his yartzeit, I find it very troubling to tamper with this. Oops everybody, it's just a printing mistake and you've got the wrong day. Sounds off. By Divine Providence, this is the day that is observed as the yartzeit. I would be very wary of messing with Rashbi (see story above).
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Sorry, but I find your attitudes very strange. I have absolutely no idea about this, as I haven't seen any sources. (I can only say Rav Yaakov Hilel is a great talmid chacham).
Why do you see it as a threat if it is shown that Lag B'Omer is not Rashbi's yartzheit? Really, downplaying the pnimius of the Torah??? It is a fact that Lag B'Omer is celebrated as honoring Rashbi throughout EY, and su also said in her source that there are other connections between Rashbi and Lag B'Omer. Here in EY no one feels any need to "downplay the pnimius of the Torah" or the kovod given to Rashbi. In EY Jews of every shade and stripe - Litvish and Chassidish, Sephardi and Ashkenazi, those who keep mitzvos and those who are traditional, take Lag B'Omer and the Rashbi very seriously indeed.
In fact I almost started a thread (in the end I just couldn't be bothered) on why there is such silence on imamother (where we need to exchange Pesach Sheini plans and recipes for the yartzheits of latter day rebbes months in advance  ) about Lag B'Omer.
Why is it a threat to confirm historical facts one way or the other?
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TzenaRena
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Fri, May 23 2008, 6:17 am
I think it should have been worded: Did anyone hear of this, that ther are opinions that hold ....
Since you are citing an opinion, you need to make that clear, and not state it as an accomplished fact. That Lag B'Omer is RaShBi's hillulah is universally accepted, and despite any logic of a contradictory opinion, it has not definitively proven anything, yet it's presented as fact. Why?
I'm not saying that the opiniions cited have no validity as opinions,(never heard of this before, but you learn something new all the time) however, it doesn't change the holiness and reality of Lag B'Omer.
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ChossidMom
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Fri, May 23 2008, 10:07 am
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Thanks for sharing your story, Mambear! I've heard many stories like that. My nephew hadn't had kids for years. Went up, davened etc. Within the year they had their own little Shimon.
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Motek
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Fri, May 23 2008, 11:33 am
| shalhevet wrote: | | It is a fact that Lag B'Omer is celebrated as honoring Rashbi throughout EY |
Why is the day celebrated to honor him?
Are hundreds of thousands of Jews celebrating because of a typo when they think they are marking his Yom Hilula?
| Quote: | | In fact I almost started a thread (in the end I just couldn't be bothered) on why there is such silence on Imamother ... about Lag B'Omer. |
Silence? There are quite a few threads on the subject  What topic re Lag B'Omer do you think is lacking and why not start it some time before Lag B'Omer?
| Quote: | | Why is it a threat to confirm historical facts one way or the other? |
They are not being confirmed.
What I found offensive was the assertion, not the opinion, that saying it's Rashbi's Yom Hilula is wrong, when the Baal Ha'Tanya, among numerous other greats of past centuries, said it is Rashib's Yom Hilula. At least say "the Yom Hilula aspect is controversial," but to say WRONG?
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suomynona
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Sun, May 25 2008, 7:54 am
Igros Kodesh, Vol. 3, pg. 106-107
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TzenaRena
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Sun, May 25 2008, 9:47 am
This letter was written to Rabbi Shlomo Yosef Zevin, author of "hamoadim Bahalacha" and many other seforim. So this certainly puts an interesting spin on things. I guess that should teach me not to jump to conclusions. 
However, the Rebbe uses the word "muksha", "lhaeir al hasefeikos shebedavar", so with all due respect, soumynona, I still think the right way to put it would have been that there is a question about the date. and in any case, the date is not "wrong", just may have association with RashBi through other reasons, which are clear, in the letter.
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Motek
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Sun, May 25 2008, 10:02 am
I had seen that letter last week, when someone gave me the source, Likutei Sichos, vol. 7, p. 335-6 for it. These volumes of Likutei Sichos were edited by the Rebbe and in the preceding letter, the Rebbe makes it quite clear that Lag B'Omer is Rashbi's Yom Hilula, as he did in the excerpt I quoted on p. 1 of this thread, regarding R' Avrohom Ha'Levi.
As I wrote earlier, you have confused a number of issues: when Rashbi's yartzeit is, the reason given for his death on that day. The Rebbe expresses no doubts whatsoever as to the date of the Yom Hilula.
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suomynona
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Sun, May 25 2008, 1:05 pm
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Motek, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. When you say Yom Hilula, do you mean something other than the yarzeit? If so, I'm not disagreeing with that.
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Motek
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Sun, May 25 2008, 5:19 pm
no
Rashbi said that the day of his passing should be marked as a yom hilula=wedding. When do you do this?
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suomynona
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Mon, May 26 2008, 3:21 am
Me, personally?
Firstly, the litvish outside of e"y don't make a big deal of lag b'omer so I have never done much of anything.
Secondly, I only just found out about this this year.
Thirdly, we don't know when his yarzeit is so when should I observe it?
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Motek
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Tue, May 27 2008, 11:03 am
| suomynona wrote: | | Firstly, the litvish outside of e"y don't make a big deal of lag b'omer so I have never done much of anything. |
Why do litvish in E.Y. make a big deal of Lag B'Omer? Shalhevet didn't answer me about what the celebration is about.
According to your view, there is no reason to celebrate anything to do with Rashbi on any particular day, right?
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suomynona
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Tue, May 27 2008, 12:28 pm
| Motek wrote: | | suomynona wrote: | | Firstly, the litvish outside of e"y don't make a big deal of lag b'omer so I have never done much of anything. |
Why do litvish in E.Y. make a big deal of Lag B'Omer? Shalhevet didn't answer me about what the celebration is about. |
Well, it just so happens that the litvish make less of a deal than the chassidish even in e"y (I guess because that's how it is with all kabbalistic things), but what does that have to do with anything? The sources I brought down are not specifically litvish, and I'm not speaking for all litvish people anyway.
| Quote: | | According to your view, there is no reason to celebrate anything to do with Rashbi on any particular day, right? |
My view? I didn't make up these sources. And I said they bring down other connections between Rashbi and lag b'omer.
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Motek
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Tue, May 27 2008, 12:33 pm
| suomynona wrote: | | My view? I didn't make up these sources. |
I realize. By "your view" I mean you have opted to follow those whom you quoted (as opposed to those, like the Baal Ha'Tanya and others who hold otherwise).
| Quote: | | they bring down other connections between Rashbi and lag b'omer. |
other than his being one of the 5 talmidim of Rabbi Akiva who didn't die?
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shalhevet
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Tue, May 27 2008, 1:32 pm
| Motek wrote: | | suomynona wrote: | | Firstly, the litvish outside of e"y don't make a big deal of lag b'omer so I have never done much of anything. |
Why do litvish in E.Y. make a big deal of Lag B'Omer? Shalhevet didn't answer me about what the celebration is about.
According to your view, there is no reason to celebrate anything to do with Rashbi on any particular day, right? |
The celebration is that Rashbi revealed sodos (hidden secrets) of the Torah. I never heard that his petira wasn't on Lag B'Omer, but it hardly would give me a crisis in emuna if it was on another day. Rashbi has other links to Lag B'Omer, especially that he was one of the talmidim of Rabbi Akiva.
Most Litvish celebrate this mattan Torah by learning Torah. In EY almost everyone keeps the minhag of lighting bonfires as a zecher to the light of Torah that was revealed.
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ChossidMom
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Tue, May 27 2008, 1:38 pm
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Omigosh. Do you realize that I never really knew that that's the reason for the bonfires? I guess I've just been too shallow and lazy to inquire...B"H I married a Chossid who goes to Meron a few times a month to daven. He must've rubbed off on me because when I enter the kever I get very, very spiritually inspired. There's nothing like davening in Meron (sorry for going off topic here. Just being thankful for marrying a guy who feels a total connection with Rashbi)
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