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Does it matter if the story is true?
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Apple pie




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 04 2008, 2:20 pm
from another thread

Quote:
Well, as Chanoch Teller says about some of his stories (or is it The Storyteller books?)--if the stories aren't true, they could have been. It doesn't matter if the story is literally true--but at the same time the story shouldn't be taken literally.


Does the fact that a story actually happened or not have any importance? Do you get the same inspiration from a true story or a "could have happened" story?

What do you think?
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suomynona




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 04 2008, 2:36 pm
of course it matters. If someone's using a story to prove a point or to send a message or teach a lesson, then it's worth nothing if the story's not true.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 04 2008, 2:38 pm
If it didn't happen (like that), it can really demotivate many people.

When you hear the very same thing about different people, too.
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louche




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 04 2008, 2:39 pm
No, I don't think it does, at all. this isn't Torah leMoshe MiSinai, and we're not learning halachah from a story. A story need not be literally true or even based on a true event to deliver a powerful message.

You can sue me, flame me, roast me alive or ban me from this forum, but I don't believe all those legends about Shlomo HaMelech, David haMelech, Moshe Rabbenu and others (you know the series I mean, they're in every school library) are literally true, either. They don't have to be. They make a point in a way that's engaging and easy to understand, and I have no problem with that.
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suomynona




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 04 2008, 2:48 pm
I don't mean "meshalim". For example, the story with the man who threw the starfish back in the water, that's obviously not true, but the point still stands.
I mean that if someone brings a story to show that a certain person is a godol, it says something that they couldn't find one true story and had to resort to a made up story.
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louche




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 04 2008, 2:58 pm
Using "Three Gifts" as an example: does it matter that a particular nameless young woman did or did not literally pin her clothing to her flesh before she was martyred? Does it matter that a particular man was or was not murdered for the sake of a bag of earth from EY? Do they or do they not symbolize sacrifice and dedication above and beyond the norm?

So it wasn't a bag of earth--so it was a siddur. or a pair of tefillin. or a sefer torah. So it wasn't a yarmulkah--it was a tzitzis. or a beard. or peiess. What's the difference? The story doesn't come to teach us "Girls, if you should ever be lynched ch"v, be sure to pin your skirt to your legs so the hem doesn't ride up. " The message is that Jews give up their lives for what they believe in and hold dear, and that that sacrifice doesn't go to waste.

There may be a further message there (or I could be reading too much into it, as you wish) that that even a sacrifice that seems unnecessary may serve to redeem someone else. None of the people in the story really had to sacrifice that way. The rich man wasn't obligated to give up his life for a sack of earth, nor did the old man have to give up his for his yarmulka. But, those "gifts" enabled the soul in limbo to be admitted to Heaven.
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louche




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 04 2008, 3:01 pm
suomynona wrote:

I mean that if someone brings a story to show that a certain person is a godol, it says something that they couldn't find one true story and had to resort to a made up story.


In this I agree with you absolutely. When you're talking about a specific person, presently alive or living in recent history, then stories that aren't true are pointless. It's the distance of time that makes the truth or lack thereof immaterial.
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freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 04 2008, 3:33 pm
If a story isn't true and you don't have proof and people find out, it is disenchanting to say the least, disturbing for some and for others, downright painful...
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 04 2008, 3:37 pm
Quote:
Well, as Chanoch Teller says about some of his stories (or is it The Storyteller books?)--

It's the Storyteller.
Whether or not it's important if it actually happened, depends on the story and its message.
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Chocoholic




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 04 2008, 4:42 pm
What bothers me, is that there are so many "holy rebbe" stories that are very unlikely to be true, and they claim that it totally happened, or other "holy" stories that are just very unlikely.. I am NOT NOT NOT talking Torah stories, more things that people use to get a point accross.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 05 2008, 4:32 pm
Chocoholic wrote:
What bothers me, is that there are so many "holy rebbe" stories that are very unlikely to be true


They say, if you believe every story about the Baal Shem Tov you're a fool, but if you think they couldn't happen, something's greatly amiss with you.

Certain stories are told about many people. Did it happen with all of them? I doubt it. Stories were "borrowed." So they were true, but not necessarily for the person they tell it about.
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 05 2008, 4:40 pm
dunno ... while I might appreciate many a story ... it certainly has a stronger impact if it were true ... then again, I'm pretty skeptical in believing any of them ...
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red sea




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 05 2008, 5:03 pm
I hate fake stories. There is no point in listening to them. I can make up my own. My very intelligent point is Real stories show real things .
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Raizle




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 05 2008, 5:18 pm
If you can learn something from it then that's fine.
I think it's more of a problem if it's a modern day story and then its easier to find out if its true or not and can be off putting.

so I think that if you learn from it then that is not a bad thing but if a person deliberately changes a story or makes one up then that's wrong.
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Isramom8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 05 2008, 6:32 pm
Intriguing debate. I think it depends on who you are. Personally, I feel, as does Louche, that "A story need not be literally true or even based on a true event to deliver a powerful message." The story is simply - or rather, complexly - a story, and can take on a life of its own. But I know people (such as my daughter) who get turned off to a story's message or lesson or wisdom if they know that the details have been invented, or even altered.

Maybe the debate is really about the meaning of the question, "Does it matter if the story is True?" True, how? The specific details? - or can its message or lesson or wisdom be True even if it is fiction or embellished fact, which is called faction?

Ok, this ended up spacier than I intended...

By the way, from what I remember reading in an old book of his, Chanoch Teller writes that people don't want to read absolute truth; rather they want the true inspiration that comes from a well told story.

I guess my philosophy fits with my signature:
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Apple pie




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 06 2008, 4:31 am
So, who gets to decide if the message of the story is "correct" enough to take away the importance of the veracity of the story? (is that clear?)

If the message is a good one, can *I* also make up a story? Can I get inspiration from non-jewish / non-religious sources?
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Apple pie




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 06 2008, 4:39 am
louche wrote:
Using "Three Gifts" as an example: does it matter that a particular nameless young woman did or did not literally pin her clothing to her flesh before she was martyred? Does it matter that a particular man was or was not murdered for the sake of a bag of earth from EY? Do they or do they not symbolize sacrifice and dedication above and beyond the norm?

So it wasn't a bag of earth--so it was a siddur. or a pair of tefillin. or a sefer torah. So it wasn't a yarmulkah--it was a tzitzis. or a beard. or peiess. What's the difference? The story doesn't come to teach us "Girls, if you should ever be lynched ch"v, be sure to pin your skirt to your legs so the hem doesn't ride up. " The message is that Jews give up their lives for what they believe in and hold dear, and that that sacrifice doesn't go to waste.

There may be a further message there (or I could be reading too much into it, as you wish) that that even a sacrifice that seems unnecessary may serve to redeem someone else. None of the people in the story really had to sacrifice that way. The rich man wasn't obligated to give up his life for a sack of earth, nor did the old man have to give up his for his yarmulka. But, those "gifts" enabled the soul in limbo to be admitted to Heaven.


I hear you, and you have a point, but I have heard the pin story as a true one, and as an example of tzniut in extreme circumstances to be admired and emulated...

The fact that it is not a true story (notwithstanding the fact that this story has a great message, as you explain), for me, takes away from the tznius message that was being conveyed to us.
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chavs




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 06 2008, 7:03 am
To me it makes the difference whether or not its a true story
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Isramom8




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 06 2008, 8:14 am
Apple pie wrote:
So, who gets to decide if the message of the story is "correct" enough to take away the importance of the veracity of the story? (is that clear?)

If the message is a good one, can *I* also make up a story? Can I get inspiration from non-jewish / non-religious sources?


Who gets to decide? Why, the author, of course. And the reader, who can like or dislike what she has read.

Can you make up a story - why not? What is fiction or faction if not making up stories?

By the way, thanks for the message you once wrote about finding my signature quote interesting. It happens to be that I got it from a non Jewish book, where the narrator tells an incredible story that interviewers do not accept as true, because he can't show them any proof. They say they believe what they can see. And he replies... (see quote below)
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louche




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 06 2008, 11:17 am
Apple pie wrote:

If the message is a good one, can *I* also make up a story?


Why not? There is a place in this world for fiction, and I for one believe that fiction can serve to teach lessons. The good guys win, and the bad guys get what they deserve. What's bad about that? My personal world view allows for fiction to be enjoyed simply as entertainment, in any case, with or without the redeeming moral lesson, but I find that better fiction usually does have some sort of social value. If not a moral lesson, then I learn a great deal of history, geography, social studies, and even science through fiction, in a very palatable way.

Of course if your world view is one that considers history, geography, social studies and science to be of no account, then you probably shouldn't be reading fiction, either.

I'm not quite sure of the intent of this thread. Are we discussing fiction that's presented as fiction, whether based on true events or not, or are we discussing stories about specific real people that are presented as being true but may not be?

To my mind, stories about real people should be true. If they're not, it takes something away from the story, because half of its impact is its association with that person. you may consider a story utterly adorable when it's your dc or your bff's child , and you'd be really mad if you then found out it wasn't your little angel but some kid in his class--or that it never happened at all. we don't like being duped. If we think a story is about the Rov and we find out it wasn't the Rov, or we find out it didn't happen quite the way it was told, or we find out it never happened at all--we've been had! We resent that. Imagine if the advice columnists in the Jewish Press made up the letters they answer! Sure you'd be mad.

OTOH, if we know from the outset that a story is about no one in particular, or that it's based on a real incident but details have been changed, or that it's pure fiction shelo haya velo nivra, then our minds are receptive to it and we can appreciate it on that level.
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